Les Misérables: So, what did you think?- Page 18

[ComingUpRoses2]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 2:53pm

I have the same problem with Anthony and Johanna in Sweeney Todd. They have no personalities. Maybe it's just because I don't believe in that whole "love at first sight" thing, but it always seems to kill the pace every time they're on stage/screen no matter how well they're performed. It's just so cheesy. Can't they at least speak to each other a little while before they decide to spend the rest of their lives together?

[StageManager2]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 2:56pm

I wonder how much Cosette remembers about those early years with her mother. How her life was then, even before the Thenardiers.

In "Castle on a Cloud" we get some insight when she sings: "There is a lady all in white / Holds me and sings a lullaby / She's nice to see and she's soft to touch / She says 'Cosette, I love you very much.'" I've always assumed that stanza described the moment when she and her mother parted ways, with Fantine telling her one last time that she loved her. It was also the last time someone showed her any kindness (until Valjean came along) so it's reasonable that it's an image that sticks out in her mind. But I'm not sure if she associates that lovely image with her mother, since all she hears is what a rotten person her mother is ("Like mother, like daughter, the scum of the street!"). So even though her cherished memory is that of a beautiful woman hugging her and telling her she loves her, she doesn't make the connection with her mother 'cause the Thénardiers probably poisoned her against Fantine. (This is all conjecture, of course.)


Does she remember the way men treated her mother or her? Does she even remember much about life with the Thenardiers? And how much of that rubbed off on her outlook on life?

I was around the same age (eight) as Cosette when I was adopted and I do remember a lot about my early life, the good and the ugly, but mostly the latter with dashes of the former. Therefore, I would assume that Cosette did, too, unless she totally blocked it out. But even so, having an abusive, neglected upbringing does affect you.


How did she change when Jean Valjean took her in? How was her life in the convent? What did that do to her views of good and bad and love and hate? How does she know (in all of three minutes) that Marius won't leave her or abandon her the way her own (natural) father did? Why does she decide to trust him so openly and confidently?

This is why Cosette, more than anyone, needed her own solo and more character development. Especially more than Éponine, who gets to sing a pointless song about something we already knew -- her unrequited love for Marius. It adds nothing to the storyline and is like an island unto itself. Éponine's beefed up part should've been best used to develop Cosette and answer some of the questions above. I was hoping the film would take the opportunity to correct this, but no...

Updated On: 1/1/13 at 02:56 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 3:00pm

Les Mis was written at a time in which love at first sight was considered the purest form of love.

And although Sweeney Todd as we know it wasn't written at the same time, Christopher Bond most definitely wrote his version in that same style.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 3:19pm

Cosette and Marius had a little more development in the book--they see each other over the course of months instead of just meeting eyes once. Also, their romance is supposed to be considered a little "silly" by the reader. I don't think Hugo would have included Marius finding Cosette ugly when she's 13 or 14 and the "Ursula chapter" if we were meant to take the romance 100% seriously.

"So even though her cherished memory is that of a beautiful woman hugging her and telling her she loves her, she doesn't make the connection with her mother 'cause the Thénardiers probably poisoned her against Fantine. (This is all conjecture, of course.)"

In the novel, young Cosette doesn't think that she has a mother. She says something along the lines of, "Everyone else seems to have one. But I don't think I do."

I'd also like to know what adult Cosette was thinking in the musical. They could have given her a really good solo exploring her past trauma, memories of her mother, and confusion about who Valjean really is (moreso than "In My Life" does).

Updated On: 1/1/13 at 03:19 PM

[binau]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 3:33pm

"I have the same problem with Anthony and Johanna in Sweeney Todd. They have no personalities. Maybe it's just because I don't believe in that whole "love at first sight" thing, but it always seems to kill the pace every time they're on stage/screen no matter how well they're performed. It's just so cheesy. Can't they at least speak to each other a little while before they decide to spend the rest of their lives together?"

Even though it was removed from the film, I do feel that on stage there is a bit of lantern hanging/self-reference to it in KISS ME when Johanna says "
Did not matter that I
Did not know your name..".

Updated On: 1/1/13 at 03:33 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 3:41pm

Those are all things missing from the musical's characters, SporkGoddess.

I have a basic problem with Les Miz in that I think a lot of the lyrics are demonstrative. They tell us things we are already seeing and knowing. Marius's big song, "Empty Chairs At Empty Tables," doesn't give us any insight into his past or his feelings before, during, or after his association with the other students. He misses them, things were better and hopeful then, and that's all gone now. It's an emotional moment, but not a revealing one. He is devastated by the loss.

We can already see that. Tell us what we don't know, and can't see. Tell us what you've learned from this. What you would have done differently, if anything, and why you were fighting with them to begin with. What did you hope to achieve? How has all of this changed you? Where will you go from here? A missed opportunity for more of a backstory and character development.

I Dreamed a Dream is a rare exception where we learn more of Fantine's backstory ("He slept a summer by my side ..."), also because we get to see a bit of where she has been, what happens to her, and what she has become as a result of her fate, all on stage. And we definitely hear how all of this has changed her.

As far as "instant lovers" ...

Anthony and Joanna both serve the primary plot far better than Marius and Cosette. They feel more essential and integrated into the main story. You can't tell the Bond/Sondheim/Wheeler version of Sweeney Todd without them. I think once Cosette grows up, she's pretty much done serving the plot of Les Miz. And Marius exists merely to love her in an instant and fight a battle we know next to nothing about. That's where the weakness lies.

Also, Green Finch and Linnet Bird says quite a lot about Joanna, her curiosity, her naïveté, her hopes, her fears, and even her understanding (to a degree) of her own "caged" situation. Anthony has only slightly more backstory than Marius. At least we know where Anthony came from and what he has seen before he meets Joanna, but after that, they're "the lovers," trying to escape. Still, they are FAR more tied into the main plot with Sweeny and Mrs. Lovett than Marius and Cosette are tied into Valjean's story.

Updated On: 1/1/13 at 03:41 PM

[ps05]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 3:47pm

Hello! First time poster here. I have a question for those who are familiar with the performance history of Les Mis: Have Fantines always read the last line of "I dreamed a dream" as one sentence ("Now life has killed the dream I dreamed.") instead of, say, two sentences ("Now life has killed the dream. I dreamed!" - the phrase "I dreamed" having been repeated 3 times at the beginning of the song, which would circle it back nicely, IMHO).

I know it's written that way but it has always struck me as a bit inane (of course you dream a dream! what else are you gonna dream?) and that it gets a pass as some attempt at a clever turn of phrase because of the title. But the title itself isn't meant to be read as a complete sentence, is it? Rather, following the conventions of opera, it's the first phrase of the first line and should properly by followed by an ellipsis.

Sorry, but this started bugging me after I heard Anne Hathaway going, "Now life has killed THE dream I dreamed."

Peace!

[best12bars]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 4:01pm

I dreamed a dream ... as opposed to I dreamed a hamburger?

It may be redundant, but it's one sentence.

And life has killed the dream that Fantine dreams. It's all one sentence.

I suppose it's no different than someone saying "I sing the song" or "I live my life."

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 4:10pm

I always liked how "Kiss Me" gives Johanna some personality when she keeps freaking out thinking that Judge Turpin's returned, and her insistence on taking the one thing that her mother gave her. Maybe it's not a lot, but it's definitely more than Cosette gets during "A Heart Full of Love."

Johanna's feelings for Anthony are also more understandable than Cosette's feelings for Marius. Johanna is being forced to marry an old man. Next to Turpin, most young guys would seem amazing.

[Plum]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 5:57pm

Johanna and Anthony are also a bit of a deconstruction of the "love at first sight" trope - as mentioned above, we have the ridiculous lyrics about how Johanna doesn't even know Anthony's name, and of course there's the final twist, in which sweet paragon Johanna, loved by Anthony and Sweeney as a symbol of all that is good and light, shoots her way out of Bedlam.

[bradactor]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 6:21pm

I finally got to see Les Miz at the movie theatre. Frankly I hardly go to see a movie these days but wanted to see it on big screen. Do not like sitting through thirty minutes of commercials and previews before actually getting to the film. It use to not be that long. This was definitely Tom Hooper's direction, some may say over direction, of this musical on film . The extreme close up camera work did make this movie personal and more emotional however. I sat in the third row. Hardly anyone was there today on January 1st. I know this show well so I know changes were made. All in all Les Miserables the music and musical was the real star. I think Hooper combined book and musical for changes. In some respect, the music was secondary to the actors facial expressions and emotions and could have been left out. I sat through the entire film and enjoyed it even trying not to go to the bathroom after an hour. I was able to stall my body with slight difficulty. I wanted to see what the director did. Again you can like or not like it but it was still Les Miserables the musical.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 6:40pm

A could place to go to the bathroom is during "Suddenly." I actually went during "A Heart Full of Love" and don't feel like I missed anything.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 6:55pm

So did I, Phyllis! Was that you I ran into at the hand dryer? (I was there for "Castle on a Cloud" as well.)

best12bars does a brilliant job above of explaining why the second half of the musical seems to drag. (Just saying. I still liked the film.) There are a lot of songs that only tell us what we already know.

There are numerous posts here complaining that the movie lacks the play's exposition and character development. Is that true? Because I don't remember getting much more from the stage version.

But thanks to convention, Cosette and Marius' instant love makes more sense to me than Valjean's prayer for a kid he hasn't even met.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 6:57pm

Oh, I hate "Bring Him Home." Always have, always will. Although Randall Keith and Anthony Warlow sing it beautifully.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 6:59pm

Jesus, you guys have weak bladders!

[bradactor]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 7:24pm

What can I say? I have a problem with a congestive heart condition. I try not to drink before or during a movie. I actually went before even commercials or previews started. Only took a few sips of a coke but that was enough. I sat through the whole movie and escaped as titles came on even though I love the score and would sit through those just to hear it.

[bradactor]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 7:28pm

found great interview with Tom Hooper about movie. Agree or not agree? I did like what he said.
http://movies.yahoo.com/news/tom-hooper-ready-defend-those-les-miserables-close-000057604.html

[bradactor]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 7:32pm

This part of the interview I do not know if I agree.

Anne Hathaway has done musicals on stage. When she was younger she played the lead in "Once Upon a Mattress" at the Arts school I think she went to. I know she played the lead in "Carnival" as well.

Here are Tom's comments:
where a lot of Anne’s singing has been in the privacy of her own home or at the Oscars, but not something like [Les Misérables].

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 7:35pm

What do you have a problem with? Performing in HS is a heck of a lot different than professional stage work.

[bradactor]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 7:39pm

I looked it up. This is about Anne Hathaway:
Hathaway graduated from Millburn High School, where she participated in many school plays; her high school performance as Winnifred in Once Upon a Mattress garnered her a Paper Mill Playhouse Rising Star Award nomination for Best Performance by a High School Actress.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 7:44pm

Hooper said "a lot," not "all."

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 7:56pm

I roller skated when I was in HS -- I was pretty good -- doesn't mean I'd want to do it in front of a paying audience now.

[bradactor]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 8:29pm

That is true he did say that. I just know she does have experience on stage in musicals. I also read that she was actually suppose to play the female lead in the movie musical of "Phantom of the Opera" but because of some schedule conflict or something like that could not.

[Kad]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 8:30pm

Marius copes with death very well, apparently. Eponine dies in his arms and he's sad for all of a second or two and then sends Gavroche out with a letter for Cosette. All his communist buddies get scrapped and he's sad for a bit, but then goes back to his family's huge mansion and arranges his wedding.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 1/1/13 at 9:43pm

Jesus, you guys have weak bladders!

I appreciate your concern, but it was just a coincidence of the matinee I saw: my morning coffee and the coke I was drinking hit at the same time.

It isn't usually a problem. And I could have made it to the end, but I find those songs boring anyway and thought, "Why suffer?"