Lortel Awards going gender-neutral
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#1
Posted: 10/28/21 at 12:43pm
https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/The-Lucille-Lortel-Awards-Move-to-Gender-Neutral-Performance-Categories-20211028
Thank goodness, people are finally starting to see the light. Now we just need the Tonys, Drama Desks, Oscars, etc to wake up and realize they’re behind the curve. I’ve said this before, but it’s really foolish that all these other awards bodies aren’t reading the writing on the wall on this issue. Even if they don’t personally feel it’s worth doing, they would be wise to realize that they’re going to end up with a full-blown controversy on their hands within the next 5 years, and it couldn’t be easier to avoid.
To re-iterate / re-cap from past debates on this board:
--There is no qualitative artistic difference between a male performance, a female performance, and a non-binary performance. They are all doing the same craft. We don’t separate between male and female directors.
--We’re seeing more and more non-binary actors on the stage, it’s only a short matter of time before we get a non-binary actor in a big, meaty, awards-bait role that can’t be ignored. And WHEN that happens, they need to be prepared to avoid the inevitable backlash.
--One argument we’ve heard before is “non-binary people don’t mind picking one side or the other when they have to” – that may be true for some, but not all, and in any case it’s not fair to make them do so.
--People also complain that this means fewer winners. I agree that’s not ideal, but I think it’s a worthy trade-off. There are also plenty of other ways to divide a category, but it doesn’t seem like the Gotham Awards or the Lortels have quite figured that out yet. Remains to be seen, but it’s a kink that can easily be worked out with some minimal creative thinking.
--People also worry that we will end up with more men getting nominated than women. A worthy concern in theory, but if you look at our current landscape of the industry, I just don’t see that becoming a regular issue. There are so many amazing female performances every year. In many years, the “actress” categories at the Tonys and Oscars are often much stronger and more exciting than the “actor” categories. We obviously still have work to do to remove barriers and unfairness for women in show business, but the availability of meaty, award-bait roles does not appear to be the main problem area at this time. But I’m open to hearing other perspectives on this.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#2
Posted: 10/28/21 at 12:54pm
JBroadway said: "--People also worry that we will end up with more men getting nominated than women. A worthy concern in theory, but if you look at our current landscape of the industry, I just don’t see that becoming a regular issue. There are so many amazing female performances every year. In many years, the “actress” categories at the Tonys and Oscars are often much stronger and more exciting than the “actor” categories. We obviously still have work to do to remove barriers and unfairness for women in show business, but the availability of meaty, award-bait roles does not appear to be the main problem area at this time. But I’m open to hearing other perspectives on this."
At the Oscars? There are some good years but it's usually dire and a struggle to fill the categories. It'll be easier to start with theatre.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#3
Posted: 10/28/21 at 12:54pm
JBroadway said: "--People also worry that we will end up with more men getting nominated than women. A worthy concern in theory, but if you look at our current landscape of the industry, I just don’t see that becoming a regular issue. There are so many amazing female performances every year. In many years, the “actress” categories at the Tonys and Oscars are often much stronger and more exciting than the “actor” categories. We obviously still have work to do to remove barriers and unfairness for women in show business, but the availability of meaty, award-bait roles does not appear to be the main problem area at this time. But I’m open to hearing other perspectives on this."
At the Oscars? There are some good years but it's usually dire and a struggle to fill the categories. It'll be easier to start with theatre.
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/20/18
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#4
Posted: 10/28/21 at 1:12pm
I love this in theory and it's a no-brainer from a nominations standpoint. The issue is that gendered categories allow 2 winners. So voters have to choose between Ben Platt vs Bette Midler, or Leslie Odom Jr vs Danny Burstein vs Cynthia Erivo. Any televised or major awards show wants more acting wins.
For the Oscars, I've seen the idea floated of "adapted performance" vs "totally original performance" (similar to Screenplay), which for the Tonys could be separated into "Performance in a Revival" vs "Performance in an Original Show." Some would argue that the Directing category should be separated as such, too, since they're different assignments. But that gets thornier and sometimes a year is thin on Musical Revivals.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#5
Posted: 10/28/21 at 1:40pm
I get why they're doing it, I'm genuinely glad that they are, but I fear that all this is gonna do, at least initially, is make sure white cis males largely get the award, if not at first then eventually.
The people who generally are in charge of this stuff and who vote usually still have unconscious (or, often, conscious, real being real) biases in favor of white people who've stuck with the gender they were assigned at birth, especially if said gender involves a penis as a genital organ. It will take time to create a more diverse power base, even now.
Dispensing with gendered categories is great for a truly pluralistic future, but at the present moment (unless it briefly follows what I perceive to be the welcome but likely lip-service trend of more POC plays by playwrights of color currently on Broadway at present, to name an example), it's, unfortunately, probably more likely to increase inequity.
I'd love to be proven wrong, and I'm not normally moderate about stuff like this, but I think, like an actor nervous about hitting their mark, we've moved a beat too early.
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Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#6
Posted: 10/28/21 at 1:45pm
Why don't they keep Best Actor and Best Actress but someone non binary can be nominated for "Best Performer" as just one of the nominations?
I agree, this is a recipe for male dominated nominations.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#7
Posted: 10/28/21 at 1:56pmAt least in theater, I don’t remember the last time the Best Male Actor Tony was even an interesting fight. It’s always about the women, so I wouldn’t worry about it going to a man. I mean, this year we have Hugh Jackman so yeah, but usually it’s a meaty part for a female. But I like the idea! Just not sure about the execution.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#8
Posted: 10/28/21 at 2:22pm
Not to namedrop, yet I've a friend who won one of these around 30 years ago. The last I heard, a mutual acquaintance said his career hasn't gone as he had hoped.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#9
Posted: 10/28/21 at 2:57pm
While I certainly appreciate the idea of a gender-neutral award, to me it's not necessarily about the gender of the performer, but about the role they're playing. I think there are certainly differences in what they are given to portray and/or sing in based on the gender of their role. And what if they're in the same show? Just imagine who will be locked out if literally every nomination went to Hamilton actors that year, Just look at the work Katrina Lenk and Tony Shalhoub did for The Band's Visit - you're telling me we can compare their work against each other? Or would they cancel each other out?
"Hey little girls, look at all the men in shiny shirts and no wives!" - Jackie Hoffman, Xanadu, 19 Feb 2008
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#10
Posted: 10/28/21 at 3:00pmThis happens often, and in many circumstances....but it has nothing to do with the thread.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#11
Posted: 10/28/21 at 3:40pm
everythingtaboo said: "While I certainly appreciate the idea of a gender-neutral award, to me it's not necessarily about the gender of the performer, but about the role they're playing. I think there are certainly differences in what they are given to portray and/or sing in based on the gender of their role. And what if they're in the same show? Just imagine who will be locked out if literally every nomination went to Hamilton actors that year, Just look at the work Katrina Lenk and Tony Shalhoub did for The Band's Visit - you're telling me we can compare their work against each other? Or would they cancel each other out?
"
Apologies if this sounds harsh, but this logic doesn’t hold up to any level of scrutiny. So you can’t compare Shalhoub vs. Lenk because they’re in the same show but different genders, but you CAN compare Rannels vs. Gad, Miranda vs. Odom Jr., Chenoweth vs. Menzel? Not to mention, you can’t compare Shalhoub vs Lenk, but you can compare Cynthia Erivo vs Laura Benanti in totally different kinds of shows?
The fact that Lenk and Shalhoub were very different from each other in Band’s Visit had nothing to do with their genders. It had to do with the way the roles were written.
And like yes, a LOT of art can’t / shouldn’t be compared to each other. But comparing art is the business of awards. So you might as well compare them on the basis of the actual art. Like I said, with a little imagination there are other ways to make sure a sufficient number of awards are still handed out.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#12
Posted: 10/28/21 at 4:12pm
I can't compare Rannells vs Gad, but let's compare the winners that year: Norbert Leo Butz in Catch Me vs Sutton Foster in Anything Goes. You're telling me in a year like that, we've have to choose between the two? My argument is we shouldn't have to winnow down opportunities for awards any more than we already do. Where's the fun of the Tonys if we can't award more than four people for acting each year, or two at the Oscars?
Let's just do what the Emmys are planning to do going forward:
"Now, nominees and (or) winners in any performer category titled "Actor" or "Actress" may request that their nomination certificate and Emmy statuette carry the term "Performer" in place of Actor or Actress."
"Hey little girls, look at all the men in shiny shirts and no wives!" - Jackie Hoffman, Xanadu, 19 Feb 2008
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#13
Posted: 10/28/21 at 4:13pm
Maybe I’m reflecting my own biases rather than based in reality but as hinted at by others earlier it’s actually the women performers and roles that tend to be the most interesting and virtuosic in theatre, especially musical theatre. I have no interest in these remarkable performances being compared with or competing again men. Good intentions but bad execution and seems more likely to do more harm than good in the long run.
It seems to me that the outcome will be women not getting the awards they deserve or men not being able to compete in the A league. If the issue is around the gender binary why don’t awards shows create a new category in the relevant years where 1 or more performers don’t identify with the gender binary.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#14
Posted: 10/28/21 at 4:48pm
@everythingtaboo
Respectfully, it feels like you missed all the points I just made in my last post. You just provided additional examples of people who are hard to compare, and my response remains the same: the factors that go into making 2 actors hard to compare have nothing to do with gender, so for every example you come up with of “are you telling me we would’ve had to compare x vs. y?” I would respond, “I’m telling you we DID have to compare y vs. z, and it was just as nonsensical, if not more so, as it would’ve been to compare x vs. y.”
And as I’ve said multiple times now, I think it would be entirely possible to come up with another split so that the same number of people get awards, while using criteria that are more based in art.
The Emmy idea is interesting, but the problem is that, by the time you get to the point where you give the actor that permission, you’ve already lumped them into one of the binary categories. So it defeats the purpose, as far as making space for non-binary people is concerned.
@binau - As for creating a new category for it on certain years, I have 2 responses: (1) at the moment there aren’t enough non-binary actors in major roles to fill our a full category, which is a problem that may will hopefully be solved one day. But until then, you’d end up with a lot of awkward in-between years where there’s only 1 person eligible. But also…(2) you still have the problem of comparing people based on gender which is nonsensical.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#15
Posted: 10/28/21 at 4:52pm
I personally don’t think any of the major award shows like the Emmys, Oscars, and Tonys should create gender-neutral acting categories. If you ask me, actors and actresses must compete for their own prizes separately. That way the wealth can be spread among not only the nominees, but also the winners as well.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#16
Posted: 10/28/21 at 5:35pm
It will be interesting to see where theatre and TV/film awards go in general, given that the general public seems to care less and less with each passing year. The myth of "best" in the arts is pretty much gone, and I think everyone has accepted at this point that arts awards are pretty meaningless. That said, I will be happy to accept one if anyone ever offers, lol.
My biggest concern, as others have stated, is having less winners, and politics coming even more into play than before. I actually think white men will be less likely to win, and performers from marginalized groups (women, non-binary, BIPOC) will generally have the edge. That's not necessary a bad thing, but it's worth pointing out.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#17
Posted: 10/28/21 at 5:45pm
JBroadway, I get where you're coming from, but until I see examples of any real sensical way to split the performances aside from gender so that there are at least the same number of chances to win a performance Tony than there are now, I'm not sold. And I'm pretty sure that the producers of these shows will wonder the same thing before they decide to invest money and time into Tony campaigning.
"Hey little girls, look at all the men in shiny shirts and no wives!" - Jackie Hoffman, Xanadu, 19 Feb 2008
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/19/05
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#18
Posted: 10/28/21 at 5:50pm
The major awards in Toronto changed to gender-neutral categories in 2019, and generally the categories split pretty unequally.
For instance, last year:
Opera - 6 women, 2 men
Musical lead - 5 women, 2 men
Musical featured - 5 women, 3 men
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/21
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#19
Posted: 10/28/21 at 6:08pm
Simply making categories gender-neutral could be a potentially incomplete solution.
Maybe it is just my consultant brain at work, but I feel like strategic question is something along the lines of: "How might the best performances be recognized in an equitable manner regardless of gender of either the performers or their characters?"
A smart group of people could probably generate a variety of interesting possibilities.
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/19/05
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#21
Posted: 10/28/21 at 8:56pm
Honestly, there is no way to make a change that will make everyone happy. Wasn't Alex Newell considered for Supporting Actress, because that is where Alex wanted to be considered?
Unfortunately, I also think this is a change that effects (in the grand scheme of things) so few people (ie. I'm thinking more of the NYC/Broadway community). Aunt Susie and Aunt Karen are going to say best actress for years to come. So, if something does happen, let's not assume we are all going to jump on board. Many people will still call it actor and actress for years to come.
Broadway Star Joined: 2/21/04
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#22
Posted: 10/28/21 at 9:11pm
This is terrible. Stop trying to erase gender.
I absolutely hated the Grammys removing the gender categories and putting Solo in its place.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#23
Posted: 10/28/21 at 9:24pm
fashionguru_23 said: "Honestly, there is no way to make a change that will make everyone happy. Wasn't Alex Newell considered for Supporting Actress, because that is where Alex wanted to be considered?"
I don't recall that being the case, but I may be wrong. I believe they were primarily still using he/him pronouns back then, and I recall the conversation mostly being about their chances in Featured Actor.
"Unfortunately, I also think this is a change that effects (in the grand scheme of things) so few people (ie. I'm thinking more of the NYC/Broadway community). Aunt Susie and Aunt Karen are going to say best actress for years to come. So, if something does happen, let's not assume we are all going to jump on board. Many people will still call it actor and actress for years to come."
Again, I would argue that it already effects everyone, because the categories are split on an arbitrary criterium. But anyway, even if we remove that argument from the equation: this will effect more and more people as time goes on, as Broadway becomes more gender-diverse. The only reason they haven't had a sh*t-storm of backlash is because there hasn't been a non-binary actor who has been a major awards-contender with a lot of visibility (which is its own problem). But mark my words: it'll happen within the next 5 years, and the moment it does, it's going to be like a lightbulb going off, Twitter is going to have a field day, and the Tony committee will be desperately scrambling to save face. Like I said, the writing is on the wall.
I don't particularly care what Aunt Susie and Aunt Karen think, but in any case they won't have anything to continue calling "Best Actress" if there is nothing that resembles a Best Actress category. This isn't about changing the names of the categories, it's about changing the categories themselves.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#24
Posted: 10/28/21 at 10:02pm
I completely agree with JBroadway. Non-binary performers should not have to compete in categories that don't align with their identities, and they should not be seated at a separate kids' table. Separating actors' and actresses' work perpetuates the thinking that their work is fundamentally different. It makes no sense to separate "Best Actor" and "Best Actress" just as it makes no sense to award "Best Male compose" or "Best Female Lighting Designer". There are plenty of possible ways to address the "but then fewer people will win awards!" concern. Some regional theatre awards have give two awards per group of ten nominees in a category--the winners of "Best Performer in a Lead Role" might be two men, two women, one man and one woman, etc. Another possibility is to split up comedies and dramas (it's worth noting how dramatic performances are often taken more seriously by awards bodies than comedies). And, for what it's worth, the Tony Awards are already so limited by virtue of number of productions that are able to open each season that every year there's an acting category or two where there are so few eligible performances that performers seem to win nominations almost by default.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#25
Posted: 10/29/21 at 3:46am
Re: why it can make sense to separate….of course in reality there is much more complexity than can possibly be accounted for this way but the fact is there is a qualitative difference between the performances given by women and men, first in quality because women (in the context of musical theatre) are better and have higher quality roles, second because these actors with very few exceptions don’t just have a different gender identity in real life but also the characters themselves do and despite what we might want it does mean something in terms of the life experience and stories you tell depending on whether you are a man or woman (or something else) in this world so there are differences and finally because physically there are qualitative similarities within female an male actors such as range and timbre of voice and physical appearance. Of course due to the complexity of reality this still doesn’t mean it is a perfect way to group and have people compete against each other but there is more substance to this approach than saying it’s completely pointless.
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