Lortel Awards going gender-neutral- Page 2
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#25
Posted: 10/29/21 at 3:46am
Re: why it can make sense to separate….of course in reality there is much more complexity than can possibly be accounted for this way but the fact is there is a qualitative difference between the performances given by women and men, first in quality because women (in the context of musical theatre) are better and have higher quality roles, second because these actors with very few exceptions don’t just have a different gender identity in real life but also the characters themselves do and despite what we might want it does mean something in terms of the life experience and stories you tell depending on whether you are a man or woman (or something else) in this world so there are differences and finally because physically there are qualitative similarities within female an male actors such as range and timbre of voice and physical appearance. Of course due to the complexity of reality this still doesn’t mean it is a perfect way to group and have people compete against each other but there is more substance to this approach than saying it’s completely pointless.
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#26
Posted: 10/29/21 at 4:30am
''My biggest concern, as others have stated, is having less winners, and politics coming even more into play than before. I actually think white men will be less likely to win, and performers from marginalized groups (women, non-binary, BIPOC) will generally have the edge.''
Performers of color still face challenges getting NOMINATED, let alone winning, at the major awards. Witness the recent controversies over OscarsSoWhite. And even getting nominated doesn't necessarily increase their odds of triumphing. At the latest Primetime Emmys, performers of color reportedly made up 44% of the nominees in the12 acting categories for leading and supporting in comedies, dramas and limited series. And white actors won every one of those 12 categories.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#27
Posted: 10/29/21 at 6:12am
Ravenclaw said: "I completely agree with JBroadway. Non-binary performers should not have to compete in categories that don't align with their identities, and they should not be seated at a separate kids' table. Separating actors' and actresses' work perpetuates the thinking that their work is fundamentally different. It makes no sense to separate "Best Actor" and "Best Actress" just as it makes no sense to award "Best Male compose" or "Best Female Lighting Designer". There are plenty of possible ways to address the "but then fewer people will win awards!" concern."
Again, I think this is easier for theater and harder for film, TV, etc. Things are a little better in recent years but in the acting categories, the roles women tend to be nominated for are still wife/girlfriend, mother, or biopic leads. I think that's the fundamental difference. And that's before you get into the quality of the scripts and the money going into a movie centered around a woman's story. Back to the Tonys, the point about the other categories is interesting as it highlights the lack of gender equity in different fields. I think women are still most likely to be represented in costume design.
Do you think it would work to have multiple winners depending on how much of the vote share nominees receive? You could still have two (or more) lead acting winners but it could potentially be a man and woman or two men or a woman and a nonbinary performer, etc.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#28
Posted: 11/5/21 at 5:09pm
I think the main issue is that there will be fewer awards to go around. The very idea of pitting art into competition with other art is rather odd in itself. It's not like we're ranking based on objective or empirically-verifiable metrics, as in sports (points, time, distance, etc.). The amount of work or effort or objective talent an actor has does not translate to their performance in any linear fashion. So, the ultimate point of awards of this sort is just to recognize how many people (judges/voters) derived subjective enjoyment from a performance. I think more awards is better than fewer.
Maybe one solution could be to have ranked choice awards, so that there are more awards to go around: first place, second place, third place, or gold, silver, and bronze, as in the Olympics. The rankings would be based simply on the number of votes. It would give more recognition to spread around.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#29
Posted: 11/8/21 at 10:23am
Gender is not the only way to split up awards.
I would agree with a previous comment that splitting them by drama/comedy actually makes more sense. It's easier to compare the merits of two comedic performances than a comedic vs a dramatic performance but they're both men. there's just such vastly different goals and metrics in comedic vs dramatic performances.
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/14/13
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#30
Posted: 11/8/21 at 10:48am
Good. Split up by comedy/drama and we’re in business.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#31
Posted: 11/8/21 at 12:06pm
MikeInTheDistrict said: "Maybe one solution could be to have ranked choice awards, so that there are more awards to go around: first place, second place, third place, or gold, silver, and bronze, as in the Olympics. The rankings would be based simply on the number of votes. It would give more recognition to spread around."
FWIW, the Lortels are already ranked choice to determine category winners. I feel like having 2nd and 3rd winners would defeat the point unless the categories themselves become much larger.
Designers and directors and writers don't have gendered categories. Why is it so hard to imagine performance categories the same way?
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/20/13
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#32
Posted: 11/8/21 at 12:08pm
Rainah said: "Gender is not the only way to split up awards.
I would agree with a previous comment that splitting them by drama/comedy actually makes more sense. It's easier to compare the merits of two comedic performances than a comedic vs a dramatic performance but they're both men. there's just such vastly different goals and metrics in comedic vs dramatic performances.
That's an amazing idea, totally agree.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#33
Posted: 11/8/21 at 3:58pm
I definitely agree that gendering the categories is silly and antiquated, but cutting the number of acting categories would be a bummer and would be bad for business for the televised award shows. The alternative that would make the most sense to me would be to separate the categories by genre/style. The Emmys and the Golden Globes already do this by separating comedy and drama. You could also add in categories for best ensemble or best debut/newcomer or things like that to give out more performance-based awards. There would likely be some years where there aren’t enough candidates to fill a category or some instances of category fraud, but we have those issues already. It’s not an exact science.
Broadway Star Joined: 7/18/11
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#34
Posted: 11/8/21 at 4:42pm
In addition to splitting up the performer awards for comedy and drama, there could be a floating category for classic performer awards for the Tonys and Oscars for years when there are a certain number of period pieces, Shakespeare, pieces that use verse, etc. that are eligible for nominations. They could even split it up as comedy and drama as well. Even if there are limited classic plays or films produced within the year, there could be multiple performers nominated from the same play or film.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#35
Posted: 11/8/21 at 5:28pm
No one has mentioned the other change: that there will finally be an award given for Outstanding Ensemble, which is a category that should be in the Tonys as well. I think only the SAG awards has it now.
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#36
Posted: 11/8/21 at 5:55pm
IronMan said: "No one has mentioned the other change: that there will finally be an award given for Outstanding Ensemble, which is a category that should be in the Tonys as well. I think only the SAG awards has it now."
I didn't notice that, thanks for pointing it out! I agree it's a good move.
Worth noting that the Drama Desks also have an ensemble category.
I like the idea of adding an ensemble category to the Tonys, but I dread the inevitable, annual argument about principle ensembles vs. chorus ensembles. The Drama Desk ensemble award (and I guess also the SAG one, technically) are designed for principal ensembles: i.e a group of principal actors who are all great, and work together in a such a cohesive way that you want to award them all as a unit. For that reason, the Drama Desk Ensemble Award usually goes to a small-cast play.
But separately, there have also been people in the Broadway fandom/community who have called for an award dedicated to "the ensemble" of traditional musicals- i.e, the chorus, the non-principals. Unless the Tonys want to split that into 2 separate awards, they are going to be dealing an annual barrage of confusion and outrage from people who have been trying to champion an award for non-principal ensembles. I'm not saying that's a reason NOT to do it, but they'll have to be very clear with their criteria and wording at every opportunity!
Lortel Awards going gender-neutral#39
Posted: 11/11/21 at 5:49pm
A dumb solution in search of a problem.
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