Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Murderers as Broadway Heroes
#0Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 12:33am
Ok, Assassins is an obvious example of murderers at center stage in a Broadway musical, but several others come to mind for me, and my knowledge pales in comparison to many of you...
Probably my all-time favorite show, Ragtime, lionizes Coalhouse, whose life is seen as a tragedy of injustice, and his premeditated multiple murders over a possession and a tragic accident seem rationalized away. If it happened today in NYC, The Times would -rightly- label him a terrorist mass murderer of public servants. Probably would not even use the slightly understanding term of 'vigilante.' Perhaps the papers in the show's setting did as much, but only in the background. Much is made of Sarah's death, but several murdered firemen were dismissed mid-sentence. In the end, the murderer takes the final bow in a show with several parallel protagonists.
Then there's another of my favorite shows- Peter Pan. Yes, the multiple murderer Peter Pan, who kills two dutiful sailors in the dark, and who drops a bomb on a drowning amputee- the same ship's captain whom he had previously cut off the arm in an unexplained situation. Our hero, Peter Pan!
And (as I get sillier still)- I can make a strong circumstantial case that Jane Eyre had something to do with four deaths in her musical (strong motives in three of them), though this was not the author's version.
Back to the point- what other musicals show murderers in a positive light? Any commentary on this use of the art form?
#1re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 12:34am
CHICAGO
And, of course, SWEENEY TODD.
but that's not necessarily in a "positive light"
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
Updated On: 9/8/04 at 12:34 AM
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
jonartdesigns
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/15/04
#2re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 12:38amyeah chicago is all prime example here since by the end the audience is rooting for roxie (who brutally murders someone on stage) to get off scoff free
"Grease," the fourth revival of the season, is the worst show in the history of theater and represents an unparalleled assault on Western civilization and its values. - Michael Reidel
millie_dillmount
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
#3re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 12:45am
Roxie Hart in Chicago
Curly in Oklahoma! (he murdered Jud Fry - would he count?)
"We like to snark around here. Sometimes we actually talk about theater...but we try not to let that get in our way." - dramamama611
#4re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 12:49am
INTO THE WOODS
(Jack kills giant, Little Red Ridinghood, Granny and Baker kill wolf, LRR, Jack, Baker and Cinderella kill Female Giant)
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
#5re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 12:49amMillie you are totally right, he does kill Jud and I remember the first time I saw Oklahoma thinking "curly just killed the guy who does everyone like him anyway!?"
And hang on, when did you win the discus?
#6re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 12:51am
CAMELOT
Many instances, including Arthur knowingly sending his men to be slaughtered by Lancelot and his men
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
Updated On: 9/8/04 at 12:51 AM
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
FestiveCheez
Swing Joined: 9/6/04
#8re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 12:58amIt may be seen as slightly MichaelMooresque to call a chief of state who sends soldiers into battle a murderer. I'm guessing you will take that as a compliment! Updated On: 9/8/04 at 12:58 AM
#9re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:01am
I'm talking about when Lancelot comes to save Guenevere, not the battle at the end.
Arthur KNOWS his men don't stand a chance, but sends them to die anyway out of his love for Guenevere.
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
#10re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:04amPerhaps, but it might also be called his sense of the law, which he chose over Guenevere in Mordred's trap. What could he do- tell his soldiers to stand down while Lance takes her from justice? Updated On: 9/8/04 at 01:04 AM
#11re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:08am
He can't do either.
As Mordred says, If he lets her go, denying his own laws, his whole life is a fraud. But if he lets her die, his life isn't worth living. So it is a serious porblem.
However, I am just saying that, I feel, he has misused his kinghts trust by sending them into an impossible battle. And he is rooting against his own men.
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
millie_dillmount
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
#12re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:11am
I have only seen the movie, but I'm guessing it is the same for Broadway...
Simba...when he doesn't hold onto Scar on the cliff, and let's him fall to his death.
"We like to snark around here. Sometimes we actually talk about theater...but we try not to let that get in our way." - dramamama611
#13re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:13am
My take is that Arthur and the knights were duty bound to try to battle Lancelot. But Arthur indeed stacked the deck against himself by scheduling the burning at 5AM.
Gwen's (answered) prayer and The Lusty Month of May is at the root of all of the trouble in that show.
#14re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:20amGood one Millie- That could be another thread in itself- bad guys who fall to their deaths (Gaston, Javert, Injun Joe, Scar).
#15re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:22amIndeed. I was not stating that all the conflicts are Arthurs fault. Far from it. I was just using on of his actions as an example.
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
#16re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:23amAnd the Baker's Wife falls to her death.
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
#17re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:43am
I guess we could include Evita's Che Guevara as a mass murderer who gets a good shake, though no serious mention is made of his real world atrocities in the show.
for that matter, Hitler in the Producers (or at least in Springtime for Hitler)???
jonartdesigns
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/15/04
#18re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:50amj. pierrepont finch- okay he ddin't kill anyone but he does ruin some peoples lives in the course of the show.
"Grease," the fourth revival of the season, is the worst show in the history of theater and represents an unparalleled assault on Western civilization and its values. - Michael Reidel
#19re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 4:13am
Simba...when he doesn't hold onto Scar on the cliff, and let's him fall to his death.
I don't think it counts as "murder" if it's in self-defence. Remember that Scar (in the movie) throws ashes in Simba's eyes, then pounces on him. But Simba does a tumble-kick, and Scar goes flying off the rock.
I haven't seen the musical in years, but I think something similar happens (Simba is about to let Scar live, then Scar attack Simba, who defends himself, and Scar falls off cliff, to be eaten by hyenas).
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HEDWIG: "The road is my home. In reflecting upon the people whom I have come upon in my travels, I cannot help but think of the people who have come upon me."
Jon
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/20/04
#20re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 6:46am
Don't forget Tony in West Side Story - he kills Bernardo.
And Candide... he slays both the Grand Inquisitor and the Rich Jew who share Cunegonde, taking her on alternating nights ofthe week.
#21re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 6:53am
Yeah, I'm disagreeing with the Simba bit, too. Scar was attacking him after Simba was going to let him live, and Simba was just defending himself. Besides the fact that Scar didn't die from the fall--the hyenas killed him.
Does Curly really count as a murderer? I've only seen the Trevor Nunn production with Hugh Jackman, but that seemed to be clearly self-defense to me. Jud pulled that kife, after all.
#22re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 7:28am
Can't believe that no-one has mentioned the Phantom of the Opera (got a bit of a sick mind there) and also Kim in Miss Saigon (who is admitedly defending her child). Also - the three Witches of Eastwick dispatch Felicia Gabriel and her husband (albeit indirectly in the stage version)
Does Norma Desmond count as a hero?
#23re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 8:05am
And don't forget Angel in Rent commiting "akitacide"...
Edited...sorry, had my head up my a**.
Updated On: 9/8/04 at 08:05 AM
kissmycookie
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/21/04
#24re: Murderers as Broadway Heroes
Posted: 9/8/04 at 1:15pm
The Capeman
Assassins
Shouldn't there be a distinction between killing and murder? Murder implies intent to kill. Killing in self defense is not murder.
Updated On: 9/8/04 at 01:15 PM
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