People that you consider Geniuses?- Page 2
People that you consider Geniuses?
#25People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 8:53pmA lot of the discussion in this thread seems to confound the word "genius" with talent. There is, to be sure, a vernacular use of the word that depreciates it but perhaps it's well to ponder what Wilde said: "I put all my genius into my life; I put only my talent into my works."
ggersten
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/11/06
#26People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 9:00pm
I think of genius as someone who has made some kind of leap over the others in the field and changed the field - redefined what is possible. Someone who has crafted a production in a way that only in retrospect seems right - who had the insight to create something not just new - but completely new. The ones whose work causes others in the field to think - my field will never be the same. Someone to whom everyone is constantly compared to and generally found to not have achieved.
This doesn't mean that others aren't great - or creative - or even groundbreakers. I think the genius is someone is not only a gamechager - but almost unrivaled.
The names which come to mind are: Porter, Rodgers, Robbins and Fosse.
Updated On: 7/24/14 at 09:00 PM
#27People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 9:01pm
Considering the diversity of his body of work, in terms of topic, content, intelligence, and emotion, and the effect his work has had on musical theatre as an artform, Sondheim is the only person I, personally, would call a genius of musical theatre writing.
For dramatists - Miller and Williams. Perhaps Ionesco and Beckett- though maybe they verge more on mad genius? For me, Durang is a comedic genius. Though I suspect I am in the minority here in that opinion.
Director/choreographers are harder for me to assess, since their work, unless preserved on film or ingrained in memory, can't be combed over. I would inclined to say Fosse earned the title.
Up In One
Broadway Star Joined: 5/27/04
#28People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 9:35pmIn my life time for musicals - Sondheim, Bennett, Prince, Tune, Fosse rise above a large second tier too numerous to name.
#29People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 9:56pmI believe Tim Minchin, assuming he produces at least a few more good shows, could turn out to be the 21st century equivalent of Tom Jones and Harvey Schmidt- a respected fringe figure whose shows are a little too quirky to be "canonical," but who remains a production fixture here and there nonetheless.
Gothampc
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#30People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 10:00pmThe greatest actress of the modern age: Emma Thompson
bwayboy22
Broadway Star Joined: 5/9/12
#32People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 10:02pmI'm surprised no one has mentioned Jule Styne, I would include him in the category of the rest mentioned.
#33People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 10:14pm
Someone in a Tree2, Loesser didn't just write "musical comedy scores." He wrote THE MOST HAPPY FELLA. Also, his musical comedy scores were far more ambitious than anyone else's.
A genius, for me, also has to be pretty much consistent. And I'm talking about Musical Theater. Einstein is an entirely different genius than Sondheim. But re: Bernstein-- There is a joy, spontaneity, and unpretentiousness in the scores for WONDERFUL TOWN, ON THE TOWN, and particularly CANDIDE. Half of WEST SIDE STORY can fall into the category. The other half can fall into the category of MASS, A QUIET PLACE, and everything else he wrote after he started conducting for the Philharmonic-- "Important." Don't get me wrong. There are good spots in MASS (The Gloria Tibi, "A Simple Song" has a gorgeous melody marred by slighly ridiculous text), and A QUIET PLACE... well...I think the daughter has a nice aria in the garden. Anyway...
Even in the most serious of Sondheim shows, there's joy. Yes, even in PASSION. I said that, yes.
And Jule Styne didn't know how to notate the triplets in "Everything's Coming Up Roses" so...he's out. (Kidding!) But I wouldn't put him there. And Michael Bennett WAS a genius at manipulating mediocre and/or less assured talents into doing whatever the hell he wanted after he left the Sondheim/Prince collaboration. I think had he not died so young, he may have made my list.
Updated On: 7/24/14 at 10:14 PM
#34People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 11:18pm
"The names which come to mind are: Porter, Rodgers, Robbins and Fosse. "
By your definition, I think Hammerstein would deserve the term slightly more than Rodgers--he was the one who pushed for the new direction their musicals pursued (not to mention Show Boat, etc.)
#35People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 11:20pm
"For dramatists - Miller and Williams. Perhaps Ionesco and Beckett- though maybe they verge more on mad genius? For me, Durang is a comedic genius. Though I suspect I am in the minority here in that opinion."
Not here--I agree with you.
You raise a fair point about directors. While Hal Prince's work has been of uneven quality, one point in his favour is that so much of what the musicals he did with Kander and Ebb and with Sondheim ultimately became were due to his work from extremely early on (of course the same could be said of some of Williams' and Miller's plays and Elia Kazan who I suppose could be up there, as well.) In some ways he really was a co-author even if he didn't get credit the way Robbins, Fosse and (sometimes) Bennett took on their programs.
Updated On: 7/24/14 at 11:20 PM
#36People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/24/14 at 11:38pm
Here's something I think I'd propose: the difference between a Genius and a Virtuoso. I think a Genius makes an unprecedented leap forward, while a Virtuoso crafts perfection.
I think Sondheim is closer to a Genius by that rubric, and Rodgers a Virtuoso.
Likewise, for playwrights, I'd probably put Stoppard in the Genius category. (Shakespeare, naturally, was a Genius. Perhaps maybe the only dramatist we could pretty unanimously agree on?) Durang seems like a Virtuoso. I also think McDonagh is a Virtuoso.
#37People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 12:55am
Adam Guettel
Michael John LaChiusa
Stephen Sondheim
Done.
blaxx
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/28/05
#38People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 2:05am
with Shwartz and Sondheim also deserving the label.
Totally. And Idina and Wicked and Sho.
#39People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 5:36am
Stephen Sondheim
Tim Minchin
#40People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 7:20am
It may seem generous to use the term "genius" with a dozen or even two dozen or so Broadway artists, but for every one of them, there are thousands who aren't in that league. I absolutely consider that to be used sparingly.
I have a longer list, but these are the people who come to mind (a decidedly "musical theatre" bunch):
Richard Rodgers
Oscar Hammerstein
Lorenz Hart
George Gershwin
Stephen Sondheim
Bob Fosse
Howard Ashman
Cole Porter
Michael Bennett
Tommy Tune
Hal Prince
Leonard Bernstein
Jerome Robbins
Irving Berlin
Joshua Logan
George Abbott
George C. Wolfe
Jo Mielziner
Robert Russell Bennett
Jonathan Tunick
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
#41People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 7:37amTrey Parker, not a musical theater genius but he does have some Tony's and making people laugh is a gift.
#42People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 7:37am
Similarly, I can't muster the same breathless awe for a great Loesser or Kander musical comedy score that I can for the composers of "serious" shows.
Oh, I do. I wish more "geniuses" could create expressions of joy and exuberance. I think we need this more now than ever before.
#42People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 7:59am
Simple:
Judy Garland
Oscar Hammerstein II
Stephen Sondheim
#43People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 7:59am
Simple:
Judy Garland
Oscar Hammerstein II
Stephen Sondheim
neonlightsxo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/29/08
#44People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 9:10amRodgers, Hammerstein, Sondheim, LaChiusa, Kitt.
#45People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 9:32amI consider genius to describe someone who is so far beyond the very talented that I wouldn't name anyone here.
GilmoreGirlO2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/13/05
#46People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 9:55am
For me, I find certain performances, works, etc. genius. So, my question is, if, say, an actor has one performance that I thought was genius, or a composer has one musical that I think is genius, are they, in turn, geniuses? Or do they have to have a certain amount of works that I would put in the “genius” category to then be considered a genius themselves? I find Tim Minchin’s work for “Matilda” to be genius, but don’t know any of his other work (performance, solo albums, etc.) – can I consider him a genius or not?
Nevertheless, whatever the definition is, the first names that came to mind were Sondheim, Audra, and Lin-Manuel Miranda.
I know it’s likely I will get some push-back on naming Miranda, but I really do believe he is a genius. Many in this thread have discussed how a genius takes a leap in an art form or creates something new. I think he has done this and I am continually impressed with how his brain works and what he is able to create (even just to small things he will post on twitter or the like). I also saw the reading of the first act (and a few second act songs) from his new musical “Hamilton” at Vassar last summer and, just from what I heard, I really believe it is the work of a genius.
Just my two cents.
#47People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 9:55am
For me, the difference between someone who is a genius and someone who is "merely" a great artist is this: If I find myself admiring what the artist creates, I acknowledge that person as a great artist.
But if I find myself wondering "How the hell did a human being create something as breathtaking as this?" then I acknowledge that person as a genius.
mjohnson2
Broadway Star Joined: 11/2/13
#48People that you consider Geniuses?
Posted: 7/25/14 at 1:40pm
Oh, I do. I wish more "geniuses" could create expressions of joy and exuberance. I think we need this more now than ever before.
PalJoey, I totally agree with you. It is easier to write a really good comedy in my opinion than a really good drama, but while masterworks of dramatic theatre come along every five years, I could probably count the amount of masterworks of comedic theatre on my fingers, because they are so much harder to get perfect.
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