#26
Posted: 10/8/14 at 10:36am
why was everythings coming up roses lowered?
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Raising/Lowering Keys — Page 2
#27
Posted: 10/8/14 at 11:00am
"why was everythings coming up roses lowered?"
Patti wanted to play Rose more butch than Bernadette had played it.
Patti wanted to play Rose more butch than Bernadette had played it.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#28
Posted: 10/8/14 at 11:08am
"I wouldn't know how Boyd Gaines was in that show, because I saw the incredibly bland James Clow."
I actually hit on a day when Boyd was playing the role. That entire production was bland. It was the most vanilla production I've ever seen of material that is anything but vanilla. I've seen community theater productions of Company that had more going on. So it's hard to tell whether Boyd was just being bland to fit into the production or whether there really was nothing there.
Then I saw the production in London and realized how much the Roundabout had screwed up. They had a black Bobby, an interracial marriage, spousal abuse and costumes that reflected the time period. The only thing that production lacked was that they cut the Tick Tock dance, which left one actress without her moment to shine.
I actually hit on a day when Boyd was playing the role. That entire production was bland. It was the most vanilla production I've ever seen of material that is anything but vanilla. I've seen community theater productions of Company that had more going on. So it's hard to tell whether Boyd was just being bland to fit into the production or whether there really was nothing there.
Then I saw the production in London and realized how much the Roundabout had screwed up. They had a black Bobby, an interracial marriage, spousal abuse and costumes that reflected the time period. The only thing that production lacked was that they cut the Tick Tock dance, which left one actress without her moment to shine.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#29
Posted: 10/8/14 at 11:19am
I saw that Donmar Company, too, which was (although not without flaws) exciting in a way that, as you point out, the Roundabout's was not. Adrian Lester was terrific.
Updated On: 10/8/14 at 11:19 AM
#30
Posted: 10/8/14 at 12:43pm
Patti's Gypsy keys were tailored specifically to save her voice in the long run. She had some Merman keys, some Daly keys, and Coming Up and Roses Turn were a whole or half step lower than Bernadette.
#31
Posted: 10/8/14 at 1:09pm
(GavestonPS)- "there is still an expense incurred in reprinting orchestra parts, etc. Also, changing the key of one song may alter its relationship with the next song or segue, etc."
Very interesting. I've learned a bit from this thread!
Very interesting. I've learned a bit from this thread!
#BoycottTrumplikePattiMurin
#32
Posted: 10/8/14 at 3:21pm
But lots of keys gets altered in workshops/out of towns, while they are working/crafting the show. I think it is generally understood that keys are not sacred and there is no "right" way...just an original way.
Heck, most licensing companies allow you (for a fee) change the keys to the score.
Heck, most licensing companies allow you (for a fee) change the keys to the score.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
#33
Posted: 10/8/14 at 3:29pm
Am I correct in remembering that Marin Mazzie had some songs lowered for her run in Next to Normal?
#34
Posted: 10/8/14 at 3:50pm
"I think it is generally understood that keys are not sacred and there is no 'right' way...just an original way."
Which makes sense to me, though others will argue that original=right. I'm also one who can't distinguish key changes (no absolute pitch) unless I can make a relative comparison.
Which makes sense to me, though others will argue that original=right. I'm also one who can't distinguish key changes (no absolute pitch) unless I can make a relative comparison.
#BoycottTrumplikePattiMurin
#35
Posted: 10/8/14 at 4:00pm
I support it as long as it's not drastic i.e. Rosalind Russell/Lisa Kirk in Gypsy. That just sucked all the excitement out of the score.
#36
Posted: 10/8/14 at 4:08pm
jo, thanks for that tidbit! i am going to pull my cassette tape of orig french les mis out of my drawer and listen to it.
#37
Posted: 10/8/14 at 5:49pm
"I saw that Donmar Company, too, which was (although not without flaws) exciting in a way that, as you point out, the Roundabout's was not. Adrian Lester was terrific. "
I saw the televised version of it, and I agree. I'd never want it to set a precedent (I've seen 2 regional productions at least steal the "Side by Side" is Bobby hallucinating while doing rails thing, and it didn't work for them,) but on its own terms, I'd agree.
But I don't remember any spousal abuse in it, really...
I saw the televised version of it, and I agree. I'd never want it to set a precedent (I've seen 2 regional productions at least steal the "Side by Side" is Bobby hallucinating while doing rails thing, and it didn't work for them,) but on its own terms, I'd agree.
But I don't remember any spousal abuse in it, really...
#38
Posted: 10/8/14 at 5:56pm
"I was also told that Boyd Gaines sang "Being Alive" several steps lower for Roundabout's COMPANY, much to the chagrin of his competitors who had auditioned with the song in the original key."
All of Bobby's songs were lowered, I believe (the only reason I know is, because whenever I play that recording, which is rarely, I can actually sing along to his part.)
When Henrik became Erik in the A Little Night Music film, his songs were lowered too (what little bits he had,) which I actually don't mind the sound of (and not just because, once again I can sing along--unlike Bobby, I think they work fine.)
I could be wrong here, but I want to say Betsy Joclyn's keys, at least for Green Finch, were raised when she went in to do Sweeney and played Joanna in the tour (and the filming.) It certainly adds to her manic interpretation of the role (though I've been told it wasn't nearly as manic initially--it only got to that point by the time they filmed it in LA,) but was done to show off her high range.
All of Bobby's songs were lowered, I believe (the only reason I know is, because whenever I play that recording, which is rarely, I can actually sing along to his part.)
When Henrik became Erik in the A Little Night Music film, his songs were lowered too (what little bits he had,) which I actually don't mind the sound of (and not just because, once again I can sing along--unlike Bobby, I think they work fine.)
I could be wrong here, but I want to say Betsy Joclyn's keys, at least for Green Finch, were raised when she went in to do Sweeney and played Joanna in the tour (and the filming.) It certainly adds to her manic interpretation of the role (though I've been told it wasn't nearly as manic initially--it only got to that point by the time they filmed it in LA,) but was done to show off her high range.
#39
Posted: 10/8/14 at 6:01pm
How about changing the key for the same performer in the role?
I know that when the actors playing Billy in BILLY ELLIOT started to go through a voice change, there were alternate versions of their songs that were in a lower key. You could always tell when it was being done when you heard a key change when Mrs. Wilkinson started singing THE LETTER.
As for Jean Valjean, I never could understand why they did not lower the key of BRING HIM HOME for Hugh Jackman in the film version of LES MIZ. His singing of that song is excrutiating.
I know that when the actors playing Billy in BILLY ELLIOT started to go through a voice change, there were alternate versions of their songs that were in a lower key. You could always tell when it was being done when you heard a key change when Mrs. Wilkinson started singing THE LETTER.
As for Jean Valjean, I never could understand why they did not lower the key of BRING HIM HOME for Hugh Jackman in the film version of LES MIZ. His singing of that song is excrutiating.
#40
Posted: 10/8/14 at 7:21pm
According to the footage of Phylicia Rashad singing Last Midnight in Into the Woods...I think the keys were lowered for her, but not like they were for Vanessa Williams. I don't know...you tell me! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHM83nmh6w
Also, didn't they do something similar with Hannah Waddingham....I could be wrong though.
Also...the keys were raised for Julie Andrews in the Sound of Music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHM83nmh6w
Also, didn't they do something similar with Hannah Waddingham....I could be wrong though.
Also...the keys were raised for Julie Andrews in the Sound of Music.
#41
Posted: 10/8/14 at 7:24pm
^After watching the Phylicia Last Midnight footage again...it actually does sound like the Vanessa Williams keys. This one is just at the original tempo! 
#42
Posted: 10/8/14 at 7:28pm
Regarding Jackman and JVJ, Since most of the demanding music was lowered, I agree that it is very strange that, considering the way he sang it, they didn't lower the key of Bring Him Home.
#43
Posted: 10/8/14 at 8:38pm
I can tell you someone who should have had the keys lowered: Josh Young in the last JCS revival. If he decides to save his voice and not do anything exciting with the role of Judas in the original key, the least you can do is lower it so that he's got a chance to shine.
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#44
Posted: 10/8/14 at 8:42pm
"But I don't remember any spousal abuse in it, really..."
You had to be watching very carefully to see it. If you were watching Bobby you would have missed the moment.
If I remember correctly, it was the couple that was smoking marijuana. I think their scene had all those kids toys on the floor (excellent touch IMO).
There was a moment where the husband jerked his hand and the wife flinched. It wasn't out and out spousal abuse, but it was a moment that sowed the seed into the mind of the audience of "What is going on between these two?" It was one of the most brilliant, understated, subtle, loaded with subtext moments I've ever seen in theater. And that is why the Roundabout's production sucked big time.
You had to be watching very carefully to see it. If you were watching Bobby you would have missed the moment.
If I remember correctly, it was the couple that was smoking marijuana. I think their scene had all those kids toys on the floor (excellent touch IMO).
There was a moment where the husband jerked his hand and the wife flinched. It wasn't out and out spousal abuse, but it was a moment that sowed the seed into the mind of the audience of "What is going on between these two?" It was one of the most brilliant, understated, subtle, loaded with subtext moments I've ever seen in theater. And that is why the Roundabout's production sucked big time.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#45
Posted: 10/8/14 at 9:11pm
Interesting to hear the Joslyn's songs were raised on the video of SWEENEY. I've always despised the shrillness of her Johanna compared to others I've seen / heard and now I know why: it was actually higher by a large margin.
Listening to them side by side it's clear hers is much much higher than Sarah Rice's original version (or the film's for that matter). It throws the whole song off somehow.
Listening to them side by side it's clear hers is much much higher than Sarah Rice's original version (or the film's for that matter). It throws the whole song off somehow.
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#46
Posted: 10/8/14 at 11:30pm
newintown, I know you are right about the tradition of musical theater composers humming into a tape recorder and letting someone else notate the score.
But almost everybody goes to college these days and, in my experience, musical theater composers have nearly as much training as their opera counterparts. They may change a key if it is absolutely essential, but it isn't something they do casually or happily.
I'm a lyricist and work with "classical" composers as well as "musical theater" composers. All of my collaborators have cared very much about keys.
But almost everybody goes to college these days and, in my experience, musical theater composers have nearly as much training as their opera counterparts. They may change a key if it is absolutely essential, but it isn't something they do casually or happily.
I'm a lyricist and work with "classical" composers as well as "musical theater" composers. All of my collaborators have cared very much about keys.
#47
Posted: 10/8/14 at 11:36pm
Quite often, it's a matter of practicality. If a show casts a star to replace someone later in a run, the new "star" may not have the vocal chops of the original actor -- but they have the box office clout. Box office clout trumps key choice.
Other practical matters -- A friend of mine is a composer -- and he wrote a song for a show with a big high A at the end. In auditions, he realized that a significant number of excellent performers were being eliminated because they didn't have a great "A." (Or more importantly, 8 shows a week "A.") By transposing it down so that the high note was an Ab, he opened up their casting choices significantly.
Other practical matters -- A friend of mine is a composer -- and he wrote a song for a show with a big high A at the end. In auditions, he realized that a significant number of excellent performers were being eliminated because they didn't have a great "A." (Or more importantly, 8 shows a week "A.") By transposing it down so that the high note was an Ab, he opened up their casting choices significantly.
#48
Posted: 10/9/14 at 11:19am
"But almost everybody goes to college these days and, in my experience, musical theater composers have nearly as much training as their opera counterparts."
Many do, many don't. John Bucchino doesn't notate his own work (or didn't when I worked with him some years back); William Finn may have learned, but couldn't back in the 80s; Wildhorn can't. I know many others (mostly those whose main instrument is guitar), less familiar, who are notationally-challenged.
A lot of young-ish composers are trying to bridge the gap between pop and theatre; and in the pop world, you use whatever key that best suits the singer.
Many do, many don't. John Bucchino doesn't notate his own work (or didn't when I worked with him some years back); William Finn may have learned, but couldn't back in the 80s; Wildhorn can't. I know many others (mostly those whose main instrument is guitar), less familiar, who are notationally-challenged.
A lot of young-ish composers are trying to bridge the gap between pop and theatre; and in the pop world, you use whatever key that best suits the singer.
#49
Posted: 10/9/14 at 11:56am
"Other practical matters -- A friend of mine is a composer -- and he wrote a song for a show with a big high A at the end. In auditions, he realized that a significant number of excellent performers were being eliminated because they didn't have a great "A." (Or more importantly, 8 shows a week "A.") By transposing it down so that the high note was an Ab, he opened up their casting choices significantly."
This is a wonderful point.
Not all (in fact, most) key changing has nothing to with a performer not being "good enough" or having the "vocal chops", but suiting the song to the performer to make sure they both sound great. For original musicals, it happens all the time in development; if a star is cast in a revival, then you make the star and the material sound good, and adjust the key.
The notion that someone like Patti couldn't do Merman's keys for the two big numbers is silly. But She was especially comfortable with them a step down, which meant she could more easily make strong choices in the song, as well as better maintain a long run of the show.
This is a wonderful point.
Not all (in fact, most) key changing has nothing to with a performer not being "good enough" or having the "vocal chops", but suiting the song to the performer to make sure they both sound great. For original musicals, it happens all the time in development; if a star is cast in a revival, then you make the star and the material sound good, and adjust the key.
The notion that someone like Patti couldn't do Merman's keys for the two big numbers is silly. But She was especially comfortable with them a step down, which meant she could more easily make strong choices in the song, as well as better maintain a long run of the show.
#50
Posted: 10/9/14 at 12:20pm
I have good relative pitch. When I see a production of a musical that I know well and the keys are changed it always takes me out of the show for a minute. There's a period of readjustment.
That said, I'd rather have a performer sing in a key that fits their voice, rather than hear someone struggling with an uncomfortable range..
That said, I'd rather have a performer sing in a key that fits their voice, rather than hear someone struggling with an uncomfortable range..
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