Rant about the 2013 TONY nominations here - Page 10

[Playbilly]

Posted: 4/30/13 at 10:11pm

I bet Berry Gordy is pissed tonight. Bet he expected more.

[michellek45]

Posted: 4/30/13 at 11:22pm

Mister Matt, maybe it's just my generation that tends to know the songs. I was the right age for the Brandi version, and most people I know can hum through at least "Ten Minutes Ago" or "Impossible" even if they aren't theater people. They probably couldn't name a song from Carousel or South Pacific, and maybe if you're lucky they'll know "Getting To Know You." I was talking more about scores that the general public is familiar with, not specifically the theater community. Though you are right in your correction that this is its first iteration as a Broadway score, it's had more TV movies that most, which I think is what has kept it in the public eye.

[Playbilly]

Posted: 4/30/13 at 11:26pm

Is anyone surprised Sigourney Weaver wasn't nominated? Big star, but no buzz or nomination.

[FindMe12]

Posted: 4/30/13 at 11:57pm

Im still shocked we havent found out whose hosting, I wonder if they arent having one like they did a few years ago

Updated On: 5/1/13 at 11:57 PM

[Joviedamian]

Posted: 5/1/13 at 12:45am

I have a weird question...I am reading a lot of TONY SNUB articles that are using the phrase "were forgotten by Tony time". I find that very hard to believe, that they were "forgotten". Is it not the Tony nominating committee to remember ever performance as possible, even if the show opened and closed like a year from now (ie: Harvey). If you forgot, then try to remember,I am sure there is list of all the shows that opened and closed within the last year, right? Also, most shows are record for archives, go back and re-watch them and try to remember and refocus on all the hard work that was represented on Broadway, even if it was a YEAR AGO!

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/1/13 at 11:12am

I was talking more about scores that the general public is familiar with, not specifically the theater community.

So was I. I've no doubt there are people who know it. But none of the songs have pervaded into pop culture or repetition the way the other shows have. I doubt there is any Rodgers and Hammerstein score more recognized than Sound of Music. Cinderella has a lovely score and I love it, but it did't yield any songs that were enduring classics. Hell, even Flower Drum Song had I Enjoy Being a Girl.

[John Adams]

Posted: 5/1/13 at 12:15pm

>> "But none of the songs have pervaded into pop culture or repetition the way the other shows have."

I'd disagree (pretty strongly), but I may be of a different generation.

When I was growing up, the Lesly Ann Warren version of Cinderella was shown on TV every year, similarly to how The Sound of Music shows up every Christmas. (The b/w TV version of Mary Martin in Peter Pan was the other "biggie".) Songs like "In My Own Little Corner", "Impossible", "The Stepsisters' Lament" and "Do I Love You.." are songs that people my age know like the backs of our hands.

If Jay Leno were to do one of his ambush street interviews, asking the question, "Where did the song In My Own Little Corner come from?" people my age would probably say, Cinderella immediately. (If the question were reversed to ask, "Name a song from Cinderella", people would either respond with "In My Own Little Corner" or "Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo" (but that's the question's fault!).

Another factor for people of my generation (I think) has to do with music education in public schools.

Incorporating "popular" music into a grade school music program usually didn't include a lot of music heard on the radio. On the whole, the lyrics were not acceptable for an elementary public school setting, but even more importantly, nearly ALL music heard on the radio at that time used electric guitars and drums accompaniments that could not be duplicated effectively in a classroom using just a spinet piano.

"Folk music" (i.e. "Puff the Magic Dragon", "If I Had a Hammer", etc.) was a popular style of music considered "safe" enough to supplement the American folk songs ("Clementine", "I Been Workin' On The Railroad", etc.) that were printed in our music books.

The other "safe" source for popular music was Broadway - especially when selecting songs to include in an elementary school concert. R + H's catalog of songs was SO vast (and they were still alive!), that their music appeared in every school concert during my elementary school years. Another song that seemed to appear in every concert was, "They Call the Wind Mariah"... but I digress! "In My Own Little Corner" and "Impossible" were the most popular songs from Cinderella

Additionally, my family had the LP of the Julie Andrews version in our home, which got a LOT of play. Between the yearly TV broadcasts, the LP, and my elementary school music program, the entire score of Cinderella is burned into memory and a pretty important part of my childhood.

...but I'm old.


_________________

As an aside, Lesley Ann Warren was so popular as Cinderella on TV that it was pretty much her signature role for quite a while. I know that I was not alone in being (just slightly!) taken aback when she appeared in the movie version of Victor/Victoria. It just seemed a little "off" to see Cinderella being so bawdy...

Updated On: 5/1/13 at 12:15 PM

[bjh2114]

Posted: 5/1/13 at 12:24pm

I find that very hard to believe, that they were "forgotten". Is it not the Tony nominating committee to remember ever performance as possible, even if the show opened and closed like a year from now (ie: Harvey). If you forgot, then try to remember

From the dictionary:

1-a : to lose the remembrance of : be unable to think of or recall (I forget his name)
b : obsolete : to cease from doing

2: to treat with inattention or disregard (forgot their old friends)

3-a : to disregard intentionally : overlook

Your definition of "forgotten" is not the one being used in those articles. They don't mean the Tony committee literally has no recollection of these shows existing.

Updated On: 5/1/13 at 12:24 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/1/13 at 1:02pm

Songs like "In My Own Little Corner", "Impossible", "The Stepsisters' Lament" and "Do I Love You.." are songs that people my age know like the backs of our hands.

I don't doubt that you and others do, but like I said, my mother WAS the Cinderella generation, having watched the first two broadcasts when they aired. But she wasn't taught the songs in school and they did not become a staple in her household (though Hair, Fiddler on the Roof and My Fair Lady were staples in my household growing up). Her favorite was the 60s version with Warren and it was indeed broadcast annually for 9 years. It was widely watched and popular then, but did the score endure in the classic vein of the other shows? I think it's extremely hard to find any evidence to believe so, but maybe it's just me and everyone else knows all the songs at the drop of a hat. I certainly haven't met anyone who knows them outside of musical theatre enthusiasts.

In my school music program, the popular songs in our class were "Don Gato" and "The Rattlin' Bog", but I don't assume they are the most recognized songs of any specific genre.
Sing-a-Long-a-Sound of Music

[shobizpro]

Posted: 5/1/13 at 1:34pm

I suspect that my upbringing was similar to Matt's. add to that my father was a conductor/music educator at a major university so I was also exposed first hand to not only opera but but musical theater fro Gilbert and Sullivan to Lerner and Lowe and R&H. I'm sure I saw the version with Julie Andrews on TV, and probably the Warren version as well but I don't remember them. Nor could I name a single song from the production.
OTOH, I know exactly where I was and what I was wearing when Paul McCartney sang "Yesterday" on the Ed Sullivan show.

[Musical Master]

Posted: 5/2/13 at 8:20pm

BUMP!

[goldenboy]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 12:21am

I think the Tony Nominators got it almost right on the money this year.

the glads:
I am glad that Lila Crawford who misses more performances than she is in did not get a nomination. Nothing from the tepid production of Annie deserved to be nominated.
I am glad that the overrated Jessie Mueller did not get a nomination and no I did not like her in Carousel either.
I am glad that Alan Cummings did not get a nomination for one of the most dull productions of macbeth ever. Playing all the roles? Indeed. Very hard to sit through.
Victoria Clark? Really?

the sads:
I think Ann Harada was the best thing about Cinderella. Why wasn't she nominated?
I thought Rachel Bay Jones deserved a nomination for Pippin.
I don't understand Will Chase's nomination-- he wasn't very good in Drrod and I've heard "a man can go quite mad" performed better in musical theatre class

[After Eight]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 6:45am

"If Danny Troob doesn't win for Cinderella orchestrations, I will be very upset. He breathed new life into one of the most recognizable Broadway scores ever"

It didn't need any new life. The original orchestrations were wonderful, and far better than the new ones, which in my opinion, did not do justice to the score. So too was the original book light years superior to the farrago wrought by Douglas Carter Beane.

A lesson to all: Don't mess around with perfection.

Or is it, really, since both the messed up book and orchestrations received Tony nominations.

Revised lesson: Mess around with perfection, in fact, make a mess of it. You'll be amply rewarded!

[After Eight]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 7:18am

"Mister Matt, maybe it's just my generation that tends to know the songs. I was the right age for the Brandi version, and most people I know can hum through at least "Ten Minutes Ago" or "Impossible" even if they aren't theater people. They probably couldn't name a song from Carousel or South Pacific, and maybe if you're lucky they'll know "Getting To Know You." "

Michelle,

You are absolutely right. We who live, love, and breathe theatre may be surprised to find just how little the " outside world " knows about things we take for granted. I have a funny feeling that many people under thirty not only do not know the songs from South Pacific or Carousel, but can't name any that Kern, Porter, or Berlin wrote. Ask a random young person what show "A Cockeyed Optomist" comes from, or who wrote "From this Moment On." Or if they've even heard or heard of either.

[John Adams]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 9:43am

> "I think Ann Harada was the best thing about Cinderella. Why wasn't she nominated?"

It pains me to see how sorely underused she is in SMASH, too. I loved her work in Avenue Q. It's hard to watch her function as pretty much a piece of set dressing on TV.

> "The original orchestrations were wonderful, and far better than the new ones, which in my opinion, did not do justice to the score. So too was the original book light years superior to the farrago wrought by Douglas Carter Beane.

I'm grateful that KirbyCat created the "first listen" thread. I was surprised though, to read so many superlatives about the orchestrations.

On one hand, I can give credit for creating the reduction as best as one could. I'm sure it was a very difficult task to take those lush, full orchestrations and reduce them down to what sounds like a minimal "pit band". It saddens me to think that the decision to do so was probably forced, for financial reasons.

In doing so (I feel), some of the magic of the show got lost. This *is* R+H after all, and the orchestrations bring as much character and life to the show as the vocals.

The most disappointing number for me is Waltz for a Ball (now, renamed to Cinderella Waltz). All the romance has been deflated from the number. Here's the original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRshwdhd4M

One case where an orchestral reduction worked well to make a show even better (IMO) was Parade. Although the original orchestrations on the Broadway version of the CD are great, reducing them for the Donmar Warehouse production (starring the fabulous Bertie Carvel ) made for a more intimate production. IMO, that was an improvement on the storytelling for a show like Parade.

...Not so much the case for Cinderella.

Regarding the new book, I'm also as disappointed as you. I get the feeling that the impetus behind such a drastic change in plot (rather than fleshing out the existing book) was so that like other Broadway shows in the past, Cinderella could be considered a "new work", and thus be considered for a Tony at a "higher" level (i.e. "Best Musical"). Didn't work out that way, though.
Updated On: 5/3/13 at 09:43 AM

[Musical Master]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:38am

^Wow, you two are such Debbie Downers when it comes to Cinderella aren't you (especially you After Eight)? I have seen and liked all three versions of this very musical and if I need to be perfectly honest and I know I'll get some hate for this but out of all the books that Oscar Hammerstein II wrote in his life, Cinderella is the most thin. I just for one think it wasn't funny nor interesting, at least it is romantic but it's just that, I want Cinderella to at least have a stronger motivation other than the prince. At least from what I heard in the new Broadway version is that Cinderella wants to go to the ball so that she can tell the prince about what's been happening to his kingdom. I know I haven't seen the show yet but Douglas Carter Beane could've made it so much worse, must I need to talk about that DREADFUL new book to Flower Drum Song.

I also must respectfully disagree about the orchestrations by Danny Troob, if you go to the Sh Ka Boom Records website and find the samples to Cinderella, they sound MUCH better than the Entertainment Weekly article. John Adams, I don't think the romance is ENTIRELY gone from that number from what I heard of the first listen. It sure makes other orchestrations from recent musicals look like a four person band.

But hey you all have your opinions and I have mine. I for one cannot wait to see Cinderella for the treatment of Rodgers and Hammerstein's lovely songs and the cast seems to be great.

Carry on gentlemen.

Updated On: 5/3/13 at 10:38 AM

[John Adams]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:54am

>> "Wow, you two are such Debbie Downers when it comes to Cinderella aren't you"

Yeah, perhaps. Where you and I are on the same plane I think, is that we can both agree on one point: When you love something, you want the best for it.

We just approach that objective from differing angles.

[Musical Master]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 11:23am

^I can see that and I am pushing 20 pretty soon. We all want to find that objective in different angles. Plus I hope you and I can agree about that ATROCIOUS and GOD-AWFUL new book for Flower Drum Song, that made a bigger mess of things than Douglas Carter Beane could ever do.

Updated On: 5/3/13 at 11:23 AM

[mmFan]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 12:47pm

The Tony awards are once a year, but yet for the most part, they are current plays / musicals /actors that are nominated. So it seems like a big adantage to have your show playing April timeframe.

Are old shows ever re-nominated? e.g. I still find that Wicked is one of the best overall shows in terms of score, story, costumes, etc...but yet it wouldn't be a Tony nominee at this point.

[After Eight]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 6:42pm

MM,

I'll thank you not to refer to me as a Debbie Downer. Truth is, I am just the opposite, always chasing rainbows. It's this Cinderella that's the downer.

"I want Cinderella to at least have a stronger motivation other than the prince."

We are all free to want what we want. And authors are free to want what they write.

I don't want Lt. Cable to die in South Pacific. But Oscar Hammerstein did, and that's what makes South Pacific South Pacific.

Oscar Hammerstein did not write a social activist Cinderella, despite what you may want. I want the Cinderella Oscar Hammerstein wrote, the Cinderella we know and love.

You say his book was " thin?" Well, give me a "thin" book filled with wonderment, charm, and yes, humor, over the snarky, woebegone, charmless mess devised by Douglas Carter Beane.

[Kelly2]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 6:53pm

^ Couldn't agree more. Cinderella felt shallow, devoid of warmth, and charmless to me. It was like eating McDonalds instead of actual food.

And it was entirely because of the revisions. The Rodgers & Hammerstein show and story, as written, are lovely.

Updated On: 5/3/13 at 06:53 PM

[Musical Master]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 8:17pm

Thank you so much After Eight for understanding of what people want in anything when ever it's cinema or theatre. But when ever I watch Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella, I can't help but to imagine what Hammerstein would've done with his book if the show ever did come to Broadway (they originally wanted to but due to Flower Drum Song, it never happend). I maybe born in the modern world, but I do understand if any of your memories of either the Julie Andrews or Leslie Ann Warren version and remember the charm and warmth of the story as it is, that is perfectly fine, in fact I am happy you all have VERY different opinions on the new Broadway version of this lovely musical. But still, I think if CBS ever gave both Rodgers and Hammerstein more time, I think it wouldn't be hard for the general public to remember it like Oklahoma!, The King and I, or The Sound of Music.

When I see this show, if I ever get the chance, I will appreciate what has been made of this show whenever the good or bad aspects of it.

That is all..



Updated On: 5/3/13 at 08:17 PM

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 8:48pm

"Are old shows ever re-nominated? e.g. I still find that Wicked is one of the best overall shows in terms of score, story, costumes, etc...but yet it wouldn't be a Tony nominee at this point."

No, a long running show is not eligible to be re-nominated.

[Musical Master]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 11:16pm

Besides After Eight and Kelly2, Douglas Carter Beane couldn't have made a bigger mess out of Cinderella than David Henry Hawng's HORRID, VOMIT-INDUCING, DULL, LIFELESS, UNFUNNY, and most of all SHAMEFULLY DISASTEROUS new book to Flower Drum Song, it's like watching Moose Murders the Musical. Hammerstein's version IS the one I'd rather watch and love. And how Hawng's book got nominated is the greatest mystery of all time.

Updated On: 5/3/13 at 11:16 PM

[bigbelterbaby]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 11:45pm

ugh they really need to find someone other than Douglas Carter Beane for these new musicals....let Lin Manuel Miranda get his jobs plz