So Engineer in Miss Saigon doesn't have to be (traditionally) Asian?- Page 4

[Ado Annie D'Ysquith]

Posted: 4/1/16 at 9:51pm

I had never heard of the Asian-American Ellen casting. But now that I think about it, it DOES add a whole new element to the story- Chris subconsciously trying to "replace" Kim, to atone...

OT, but the Engineer's casting has always seemed kind of fluid to me. I LOVE Briones on the live recording, but I haven't checked out Pryce yet. That said, it bothers me more when white actresses are cast as Kim in amateur productions. Kim is one of the few true tour-de-force parts for Asian actresses, and although I myself would love to play her, I accept that I can't. Same goes for Esmeralda in Hunchback, or Gary in Avenue Q.

I refuse to give my stamp of approval to the "vanity casting" rampant in the community theatre scene- just because you desperately want to play a role, doesn't mean you should...

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 1:29am

Of course the issue there is probably lack of Asian talent, but it makes one wonder why the hell they would do MISS SAIGON if they lacked the facilities to deliver appropriate casting.

[gypsy101]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 1:43am

Dave19 said: "The Engineer is Eur-Asian. So in your opinion only a actor who is Eur-asian can play the role? So no Asians? "

 

What the hell even is a "Eur-Asian" person? Do you mean Eurasian? And what does a Eurasian person specifically look like in your opinion?

[Dave19]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 6:52am

Literally "mixed race". A white mother and an asian father for example. So, half white.

 

So either way, for a white actor as well as an asian actor, some make-up adjustments should be made. It's 50/50.

Updated On: 4/2/16 at 06:52 AM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 7:28am

HeyMrMusic said: "I saw "Asian Ellen" on Broadway and I loved it. Added many new layers to the story and characters. Race was not ignored. I am so curious to know how this casting decision came to be. I think it's a brilliant one. 

This is a different scenario than casting the Engineer. This is not one race playing another. Ellen's race is never brought up. We just know her nationality; she is American.

 

"

 

I had taken a high school group to see this with an Asian Ellen and we were lucky enough to have a talk back session.  That very question came up (about casting). The response was that NO thought had gone into Ellen's race, they just thought the actress was right for the part.  It didn't strike them until later the layers it added.

 

[Dave19]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 7:39am

Also, what about the casting of Tam?

In the London revival they had kids that looked more Asian than Kim and Chris together.

If Eva Noblezada and Alistair Brammer had a kid, I expect it to look more like this:

https://www.google.nl/search?q=lea+salonga+tam&biw=1280&bih=709&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3vPzD5e_LAhVC_w4KHVo9B8MQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=miss+saigon+blonde+tam&imgrc=7phOJykPMOW4VM%3A

instead of this:

https://www.google.nl/search?q=lea+salonga+tam&biw=1280&bih=709&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3vPzD5e_LAhVC_w4KHVo9B8MQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=miss+saigon+blonde+tam&imgrc=j7WI2t_9EDvJqM%3A

 

In the souvenir brochure of the original London cast, as well as on the back of the cd booklet, there is a picture with Lea Salonga as Kim and Tam, standing in front of her. The boy looks kind of Asian but has blonde hair. I think that makes him really look like a child of Kim and Chris.

 

Updated On: 4/2/16 at 07:39 AM

[mailhandler777]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 7:53am

Jallenc32 said: "As far as I'm concerned the only role in the whole show that can't be played by an Asian performer is Chris since he has to have passed down his western features to his son.  I'd love to see an Asian John and Ellen in the same production."

 

I saw Matthew Dickens(R.I.P) as Chris. He was black. 

Updated On: 4/2/16 at 07:53 AM

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 11:36am

Speaking of Larry Blyden, who I always think of, as well, when this subject comes up...what about Juanita Hall?  She was black, and playing an Asian role in Flower Drum Song and Pacific Islander in South Pacific.  

Now I know that was a different period in US theatrical history, but I'm not exactly sure where you draw the line here.  

Even back then I would have much preferred seeing an Asian actor play the Blyden role, just as nowadays I would much prefer seeing a Briones in the role of the Engineer than Pryce.  

But then again, back to that fine line….Briones is Filipino.  The Engineer is part Vietnamese.   Are we now disregarding that aspect of the Asian world, the Vietnamese, by not making a search for someone who is Vietnamese, if not Vietnamese descent?

The word Asian keeps being mentioned, but the fact is if you want to be culturally sensitive to different roles, Asia embraces many unique cultures and looks.  If everyone is excited that the recent revival of The King and I was much more attentive to cultural casting, as was the latest version of Flower Drum Song, were all the actors and actresses strictly representative of the culture (Thai in the former; Chinese in the latter)?  

I don't think so.  So does this disregard those cultures (Thai and Chinese) just because an actor/actress cast happens to "look" Asian.  Is their unique culture (within the Asian culture) being lost in the shuffle?  Are Thai and Chinese actors being looked over?  Are Vietnamese actors being overlooked when considering the role of the Engineer?

Color blind casting is certainly appropriate for a lot (if not most) roles. But unless the intent is to make a cultural observation (such as is the case with Hamilton), I think casting should be as authentic as possible.  A Jewish Tevye.  A black Jelly Roll Morton.   A white Captain Von Trapp.   Even a Thai King or Argentinian Evita.

In Miss Saigon, the role of Chris, John, Ellen could really be played by anyone.

 

[AHLiebross]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 12:23pm

Dave19 writes: And vice versa, is an Asian actor playing Piangi in Phantom not allowed to do a meditteranean accent/make-up, like every actor does?

As we say good-bye to my favorite Piangi (Christian Sebek), who is leaving the show after a long run (and he's a really nice guy, BTW), Piangi's makeup throughout much of the show is pretty darned heavy, and it's hard to tell what he really looks like. Also, Dave, there is a lack of parallelism between a minority actor playing a white Italian than a white actor playing a POC. Does anyone really think that reasonable people will get offended if someone uses makeup to look white?

POTO is the perfect example of transracial casting. In the current tour, black guys have played Piangi from the beginning. They wear straight wigs, and maybe even skin-lightening makeup to appear Italian. When Norm Lewis played the Phantom (one of the best EVER IMO), he, too, wore a straight wig and, possibly, skin-lightening makeup, Only a bigot would say this is the same thing as Jonathan Pryce's wearing prosthetics and dark makeup.

AstroMiami, I'm with you 100% when you write: It is still shocking that people do not seem to realize that it is different when the dominant culture plays the non-dominant culture than when the non-dominant plays the dominant.

That's why I disagree with you, Mr. Music, when you say that "whiteface" is wrong.

Two years ago, I had the good fortune to see and review a show called "Yellowface," by Henry David Hwang that explores these issues in great depth, using humor to discuss this serious subject. The review talks about casting a POC to play Thomas Jefferson. The play discusses the Jonathan Pryce controversy. I find it interesting that the performance took place before "Hamilton" and "The King and I" revival. The review is available at https://www.broadwayworld.com/viewcolumn.php?colid=677881&preview=on

Audrey (whose views in this post are her own, and not necessarily those of BROADWAY WORLD).

[hork]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 12:41pm

theatreguy12 said:
Color blind casting is certainly appropriate for a lot (if not most) roles. But unless the intent is to make a cultural observation (such as is the case with Hamilton), I think casting should be as authentic as possible.  A Jewish Tevye.  A black Jelly Roll Morton.   A white Captain Von Trapp.   Even a Thai King or Argentinian Evita.

I think that's unnecessary and unrealistic. But it's strange that you didn't specify an Austrian Von Trapp, and then you specified an Argentinian Evita, even though "Argentinian" is not an ethnicity and Eva Peron was of European descent.

Updated On: 4/2/16 at 12:41 PM

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 1:28pm

The funny thing is I almost did change that to an Austrian Captain Von Trapp, but just let it go.  It would certainly be as realistic and compelling as an Argentinean playing Eva Peron.  Not necessary, true.  But compelling.

As to the use of Argentinean I think most knew what I meant by that.  In fact, I have friends from Argentina, as well as former students whose parents were from BsAs and referred to themselves as Argentinean, so just going with that.  Not really here to debate the ethnic complexity/origins behind those who are from Argentina, as I understand that many of them are of European descent, just as many of us here in the United States are.  Simply meant to identify the background of an actress who recently played her on Broadway, of which much was made.   And the homeland of the woman she played.

Your point, however, addresses the fine lines (and even the splitting of hairs) that can occur in casting though.  Which was my ultimate point with regard to the Engineer.  I can see why people would question a white man playing that role when you have talented Asians who could have done it (but were not sought out apparently). In fact, don't just cast an "Asian" in the role (Asia is a huge continent), take it even to the next level and find a Vietnamese actor. That would be both culturally and historically compelling and important in many ways. Especially with this story.

 

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 2:10pm

Interesting idea being brought up by theatreguy12 regarding the fact that as long as the person is "Asian" the PC police doesn't care which of the many Asian countries the person is from because in reality most don't know or care about the difference as long as the person isn't white.

Not at all saying that the practice o casting a Filipino as a Vietnamese or Thai character is bad or should be stopped, just pointing out some hypocrisy/double standard.

[South Florida]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 5:41pm

This kind of talk is so effin stupid and it comes up all the time.  Some day there will be an all white acting Hamilton troop, think of that scary thought.  Was at a local production of SA last night, my wife was bothered that the Wendla had a slight Latino accent.  She still dosen't think that is an irrational thought.

 

[South Florida]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 5:43pm

Is it troupe?  Clueless.

 

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 6:43pm

"Not at all saying that the practice o casting a Filipino as a Vietnamese or Thai character is bad or should be stopped, just pointing out some hypocrisy/double standard. "

 

Not sure what you are referring to as a double-standard here.  But I have never heard any outcries about inaccurate nationalities when (for example) a white Italian actor plays a white Russian character, or a black US actor plays a black Ugandan character, or many other examples where the nationality of a white or black actor is not mentioned when they are cast as a character with the respective racial characteristics but different nationality.  Are you saying that nationality should be a concern when casting Asian characters, while the lack of concern for it remains in casting black and white characters, or that people should start being concerned about nationality of the actor when casting characters of any nationality and racialized group?

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 7:06pm

I wasn't saying anything should change, I was poking fun at oblivious SJW who sweep generalisations. It's probably not a point I should try to make on a text based message board however where thoughts are hard to iterate properly.

[hork]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 10:42pm

Some people do complain when an Asian actor is cast as a different ethnicity, like when they cast Zhang Ziyi and Gong Li in Memoirs of a Geisha. So there is something of a double standard, since you never hear complaints over, say, an Italian playing a Frenchman. People seem to think Europeans are all one mass ethnic group known as "white."