So Engineer in Miss Saigon doesn't have to be (traditionally) Asian?- Page 2

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 3/25/16 at 4:02pm

Darren Criss is Asian?

[Wilmingtom]

Posted: 3/25/16 at 4:17pm

His mother is Filipino.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 3/25/16 at 4:20pm

Don't tell Cameron Mackintosh. He'll start getting ideas.

[laughingplace]

Posted: 3/25/16 at 7:39pm

Norbert Leo Butz was born to do this role. He will win a tony for it. He is too good not to do this role. I do not care if he is Asian. He will do the role justice. Its basically very similar to DRS for which he was excellent

Updated On: 3/25/16 at 07:39 PM

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/25/16 at 7:51pm

I don't care if a black guy plays the role, as long as the make-up and interpretation makes him look Eur-asian.

That is part of playing a role.

[darquegk]

Posted: 3/25/16 at 8:01pm

I've always wanted Ken Jeong to do the role.

[scripps]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 12:35pm

I would actually sit through this show again if Norbert Leo Butz played the Engineer. Might even pay for my ticket too.

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 12:35 PM

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 1:25pm

Just reminding everyone that making someone appear Asian through makeup is the definition of yellowface and therefore extremely offensive and derogatory. Norbert Leo Butz should never play this role if the Engineer is Asian, which we've all agreed that he is. 

I pose this question: If the role were originally played by an Asian man, would we be having this conversation? We'd never dare to dreamcast a white actress as Kim.

[xxdrewboy85xx]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 2:51pm

HeyMrMusic said: "Just reminding everyone that making someone appear Asian through makeup is the definition of yellowface and therefore extremely offensive and derogatory. "

 

But to be fair, Mr Music, the person who suggested they use makeup to appear ethnically correct lives in this strange world where it would be racist to only consider an Asian for the role. Something to do with some random math similar to what the GOP would use. Something something 80% white, 12% gay something something. So in his defense it would be racist not to cast a white person in yellow face. 

 

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 3:15pm

It astounds me that someone that racist and clueless knows what percentages are.

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 3:18pm

xxdrewboy85xx said: "HeyMrMusic said: "Just reminding everyone that making someone appear Asian through makeup is the definition of yellowface and therefore extremely offensive and derogatory. "

 

But to be fair, Mr Music, the person who suggested they use makeup to appear ethnically correct lives in this strange world where it would be racist to only consider an Asian for the role. Something to do with some random math similar to what the GOP would use. Something something 80% white, 12% gay something something. So in his defense it would be racist not to cast a white person in yellow face. 

 

 

It would also be racist not to cast an Asian in a white face according to your logic.

[xxdrewboy85xx]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 3:30pm

Dancingthrulife2 said: "... It would also be racist not to cast an Asian in a white face according to your logic." 

 

Yeah, I guess.... But it's not my logic. I was sarcastically defending another poster because that would be their logic. They only come on the boards to cry out reverse racism like that's a thing. I think it was pretty obvious in my post that it was not my logic. 

 

But then we really do need a sarcasm font. I mean, even Dramamama thought I was being serious when I sarcastically defended anti-vaxxers.... But I don't know how I can be any more obvious when I write sarcasm.  

 

[lambchop2]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 3:44pm

In the London version of the show and at least the original Broadway production, the 'boss' in Bangkok didn't call the Engineer a "half breed." This was added at some later point, though when exactly I don't know.

However, the character must have been defined Eurasian in some official capacity, because many of the news articles in 1990 talking about the controversy specifically define him as a "Eurasian" character. AEA, in their statements about why they would not approve Pryce in the role, call the role "Eurasian" as well.

I think it's interesting that the defense that Mackintosh and the creative team of Miss Saigon presented for Pryce's casting had nothing (to my knowledge) to do with the Engineer's Eurasian status allowing a technicality for a white actor. Even in the book The Story of Miss Saigon, which goes to great lengths to defend Pryce's casting and deride/dismiss the idea of not being for a white actor playing a Eurasian role, doesn't bring the character's race into the defense. Rather, their defense was that an actor's race shouldn't matter, regardless of the character's race. Mackintosh later made a statement confirming that the 'leading contenders' for the role in the future would be mostly or even all(!) white. The statement: "The issue is not only about Jonathan Pryce but also about the future occupants of the role of The Engineer. [The AEA statement] is tantamount to its morally barring the bulk, if not the entire, potential source of leading contenders for this role--American Equity's major Caucasian actors."

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 4:21pm

Was waiting for Dave19 to advocate the use of Yellowface since I saw this thread title. 

[hork]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 4:22pm

HeyMrMusic said: "Just reminding everyone that making someone appear Asian through makeup is the definition of yellowface and therefore extremely offensive and derogatory. Norbert Leo Butz should never play this role if the Engineer is Asian, which we've all agreed that he is. 
 

Depends on the context and purpose. It was fine in Cloud Atlas, for instance. Frankly, I think the word "yellowface" is more offensive and derogatory than the actual act you speak of.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 4:38pm

Time for a reality check. As the reporter who broke the story about the ''Miss Saigon'' casting controversy in the New York Daily News in 1990, I had a front-row seat to it all. ... The role of the Engineer is Eurasian. He passes himself off as Kim's brother, so it makes sense that the Engineer looks Asian. In London, Jonathan Pryce wore prosthetics to make his eyes look more ''slanted'' (ugh), er, Asian. When Pryce was announced to come to Broadway, this practice was met with criticism (in America), so in the New York production, Pryce did not use such prosthetics.

As for the casting, there was an uproar on Broadway, from David Henry Hwang, B.D. Wong and Actors Equity arguing that this was ''yellowface'' and patently as offensive as ''blackface.'' What's more, there were so few leading roles available to Asian men and the role of the Engineer could be a star-making opportunity. Mackintosh insisted on sticking with Pryce, and the ''Miss Saigon'' casting director, Vincent Liff, claimed that a worldwide search had been made to find an Asian guy who could play the role ... and not ONE could be found. Nor was there any Asian male with a ''name'' available, he claimed. Once Mackintosh threatened to cancel the N.Y. run, Actors Equity caved. After getting Equity's OK, the show sheepishly admitted that its worldwide search was for an actress to play Kim, not the Engineer. The show regretted if there had been any ''misunderstanding.'' They wanted Pryce all along and really weren't interested in anyone else. Mackintosh had every right to cast whom he wanted, but the show should've never slandered talented Asian men by saying none of them had the skills, especially if ''Miss Saigon'' wasn't sincere in trying to find them.

Back then, the debate was framed as an issue of being ''politically correct.'' But it was an issue of equal opportunity. If ''Miss Saigon'' was willing to cast a then-unknown Asian actress (Lea Salonga) as Kim, why wasn't it willing to cast a then-unknown Asian ACTOR as the Engineer? ''Miss Saigon'' still would've sold tickets, especially since it came from the creators of ''Les Miz.'' As for the show's inability to find an Asian leading man with a ''name,'' how do Asian men get to be stars if they're not offered the starring parts? Since Pryce left the Broadway show, I believe every Engineer has been played by an Asian-American, so the idea that none of them could play it, was an idiotic lie.

It's now about 25 years later, and things have come full circle. Recently, Mackintosh revived ''Miss Saigon'' in London, and its stars are expected to come to Broadway. The Engineer was played by Jon Jon Briones, an Asian-American who was in the original Broadway ensemble. He opened to rave reviews. Looking back, Mackintosh told the Telegraph in May 2014 that the biggest mistake of his career was not foreseeing what an issue casting Pryce as the Engineer would be: ''I said it was a storm in an Oriental tea cup, thinking I was being clever. I was actually being stupid.'' He now admits that those who argued that the role of the Engineer should be played by an Asian actor had a valid point. 

 

 

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 04:38 PM

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 4:43pm

Nice to hear Mackintosh own up to that. 

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 5:22pm

Mackintosh gets credit for ''owning up'' about ''Miss Saigon'' a quarter-century later, but it should've been much sooner.

In 1990, the number of Asian-American men who had been Tony-nominated for a leading role could be counted on one hand. No Asian-American guy had ever won as a lead in a musical (or play). Twenty-five years later, that statistic has not changed. And just as the role of Kim won Lea Salonga a Tony, I bet a terrific Asian-American actor also could've won a Tony for playing the Engineer. Maybe Briones will get to do that with the revival.

Meantime, Salonga also remains the first AND only Asian actress to win a Tony for a leading role. That's how rare the opportunities are for Asian-American men AND women on Broadway.

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 05:22 PM

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 5:24pm

It's unconscionable. Nice to see more opportunities in the last year on Broadway, but there has hardly been institutional change. 

[Taryn]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 5:27pm

hork said: Depends on the context and purpose. It was fine in Cloud Atlas, for instance.

Uh, says you.  There were plenty of fully justified criticisms of that.

hork said: Frankly, I think the word "yellowface" is more offensive and derogatory than the actual act you speak of.

You think the naming of a practice of racial caricature is more offensive than the actual practice?

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 5:30pm

The word is frankly calling out the racism of the practice for what it is. To not see that is just silly. It's the person-who-forces-me-to-think-about-prejudice-is-racist thinking that we've seen play out so frequently in America over the past several years. 

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 05:30 PM

[mar6411]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 5:32pm

Wayman,

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  Great posts from someone that speaks with knowledge and authority.   

[cvrenthead]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 6:08pm

Dave19 said: "I don't care if a black guy plays the role, as long as the make-up and interpretation makes him look Eur-asian.

That is part of playing a role."

 

I doubt many people would agree with the converse: "I don't care if a Eurasian guy plays the role, as long as the make-up and interpretation makes him look black."

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 6:20pm

HeyMrMusic said: "Just reminding everyone that making someone appear Asian through makeup is the definition of yellowface and therefore extremely offensive and derogatory. "

 
So the understudy for the role of Ellen, which is mostly a white girl, should stay locked in her dressingroom for the whole show and is not allowed to wear asian make-up as a bar-girl?

And vice versa, is an Asian actor playing Piangi in Phantom not allowed to do a meditteranean accent/make-up, like every actor does?

The Engineer is half white, so why do the Asian actors who play the role not tone down/half their asian features with make-up?

 

Double agenda if you ask me.

 

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 06:20 PM

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 6:23pm

cvrenthead said: "Dave19 said: "I don't care if a black guy plays the role, as long as the make-up and interpretation makes him look Eur-asian.

That is part of playing a role."

 

I doubt many people would agree with the converse: "I don't care if a Eurasian guy plays the role, as long as the make-up and interpretation makes him look black."

 

"

I know, double agenda too.