So Engineer in Miss Saigon doesn't have to be (traditionally) Asian?- Page 3

[SweetLips]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 7:06pm

Said it before---after seeing him in Banshee--HOON LEE for Engineer.

[jo]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 7:32pm

Sorry. double post.

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 07:32 PM

[jo]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 7:38pm

When he was in the London production for the role of The Engineer, Filipino compatriot Lea Salonga wrote this piece on Jon Jon Briones for a local paper --

 

http://entertainment.inquirer.net/146564/filipino-engineer-a-sleazier-smash-hit-in-miss-saigon-revival-in-london

 

" '[Briones] hits the mark with a delivery of acid satire.” The Telegraph, a daily morning broadsheet, finds him 'memorably seedy.' Multiplatform The Guardian compares his portrayal to Jonathan Pryce’s original: 'An even grubbier, sleazier figure who is the victim of both his background and pathetic fantasies.' "

 

 

I wonder if he also has a chance to play the role not just on Broadway but for the film adaptation which has now been reported on two production information sites ( Production Weekly and MyEntertainmentWorld) as now showing some activity ( not sure if the movie has been greenlighted or it is still under consideration by producers/studio distributor).

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 07:38 PM

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 8:37pm

Dave19 said: "So the understudy for the role of Ellen, which is mostly a white girl, should stay locked in her dressingroom for the whole show and is not allowed to wear asian make-up as a bar-girl?

And vice versa, is an Asian actor playing Piangi in Phantom not allowed to do a meditteranean accent/make-up, like every actor does?

The Engineer is half white, so why do the Asian actors who play the role not tone down/half their asian features with make-up?

Double agenda if you ask me."

If the understudy for Ellen is white, you're correct, she should not play a Vietnamese bar girl. If they find other ways to use her in the show as a white ensemble member, that's fine. Also, being a standby for a role is quite respectable and I believe being locked up in one's dressing room is not required.

I don't get your Phantom analogy. What makeup are you referring to? The gaudy opera makeup? The character traditionally has an accent, but accent doesn't dictate ethnicity. We've seen actors of every color in Phantom and it's rather unimportant since race is not an issue with any of the characters. See also: Les Misérables.

I don't know how an Asian person would tone down their ethnicity, but that also sounds wrong and derogatory. Let's put it this way: Whenever anyone of any ethnicity alters their appearance through makeup to look like another ethnicity, it's wrong. Blackface, yellowface, brownface, redface, "whiteface"... None of it is acceptable. It's not a double standard, double agenda, whatever you call it. It's wrong equally across the board. 

[SweetLips]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 9:12pm

HeyMrMusic on some thread about what members have done career wise I wrote that many years ago I was a member of the world famous English George Michell Black and White Minstrels. Our 'black' face was actually called Max Factor pancake Negro No.2 with the white eyes and lips.

I was just so excited to successfully audition and have work.

So much has changed since then. Of course the show no longer exisits but it was a variety style[like the old Tivoli and Music Hall] that was popular then and we certainly found a sold out audience at every performance.

Progress and opportunity must be made and found for equality everywhere, and not just on the stage.

SL.....x

PS---- Gosh was that makeup ever difficult to get off, especially in my ears---that's karma for you.

[QueenAlice]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 9:37pm

I've heard a number of Asian actors really credit MISS SAIGON for inspiring them to even consider a career in musical theatre.  Before the original production, the opportunities for Asians to appear regularly in musicals was pretty much resigned to the occasional revival of THE KING AND I.  I also know people who worked on casting the original production, and they said (perhaps because of that) it was extremely difficult to find the talent required to fill the original cast.  Once the show became a hit, however, they said it was a totally different ball game and that extraordinarily talented Asian performers came out of the woodwork: probably because suddenly the opportunity to have a real career was actually there.

 

But by all accounts, the initial casting sessions, even before the original West End production were fairly dire. You can see the auditions the creative team held on the documentary "The Heat is On."  So I understand Cameron's comments when it came to bringing over Jonathan Pryce to the states.  At that point, they had a mega-hit musical with the biggest ticket advance of all time, and weren't yet convinced that there would be strong enough Asian singing actors to carry the roles for a long run.

 
Jonathan Pryce's performance in SAIGON was incidentally one of the greatest I've ever seen on stage, and I think if he hadn't created the role of the Engineer in the West End, it's possible the show wouldn't have become the sensation that it did.  In addition to his singular brilliance on stage, he was a true star in the UK at the time, and his involvement made the show a must see ticket. By the time the production opened in NYC, I think it was really more about bringing over that extraordinary performance that had already caused a sensation in England to help drive the New York critics, who hadn't like the show in the West End, but who had loved him. So, while I understand the anger the Asian community felt in his casting, his contribution to the original production probably helped open the door to years of future employment for Asian actors.

 

Regarding Ellen -- Ruthie Henshall played a bar girl in the original production, but by the time the production came to NYC, everyone was more sensitive to having a non-asian overtly playing Asian and so the actress playing Ellen was no longer in that scene, but was still used throughout the performance in cross-overs and group scenes - usually wearing a wide rimmed hat that completely covered the top of her face - and hid the fact that she was not Asian.

 

 

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 09:37 PM

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/26/16 at 9:39pm

HeyMrMusic said: "I don't know how an Asian person would tone down their ethnicity, but that also sounds wrong and derogatory. Let's put it this way: Whenever anyone of any ethnicity alters their appearance through makeup to look like another ethnicity, it's wrong. Blackface, yellowface, brownface, redface, "whiteface"... None of it is acceptable. It's not a double standard, double agenda, whatever you call it. It's wrong equally across the board."

 

That's basically it in a nutshell but some people lack common sense, want to be contrary just because, are just plain hard headed or all of the above.

 

It's interesting that in the film "West Side Story" all of the Shark boys and girls were made up to look darker even Rita Moreno was subjected to this and she was of Puerto Rican descent, she talked to the producers and argued that Puerto Ricans, because of their mixed heritage are not all of the same color. They didn't take her point into any consideration and she regrets not having pushed the issue further and I am also sure she did not want to rock the boat anymore than she had to as an actress of Hispanic heritage she was relegated to all types of ethnic roles that were not exclusively of Hispanic descent so she probably thought it best to "suck it up" because roles like Anita in WSS did not come by her way every day.

 

A lot of the Sharks who were cast in WSS were not Hispanic at all. Gus Trikonis and George Chakiris were Greek. Natalie Wood was Russian American. Joanne Miya who played "Francisca" was Japanese!

 

Some of the most outrageous casting choices involving ethnic casting that come to mind:

 

Marlon Brando in "Teahouse of the August Moon"

 

Jennifer Jones in "Love is a Many Splendored Thing"

 

Mickey Rooney in "Breakfast at Tiffany's"

 

Larry Blyden in "Flower Drum Song"

 

Rex Harrison and Linda Darnell in "Anna and the King of Siam"

 

and I choose these because of the offensive "yellow face" employed and in the case of Rooney's characterization of "Mr. Miyoshi" it was stereotypical and offensive.

 

 

 

Updated On: 3/26/16 at 09:39 PM

[hork]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 1:14am

Taryn said: "hork said: Depends on the context and purpose. It was fine in Cloud Atlas, for instance.

Uh, says you.  There were plenty of fully justified criticisms of that.

 

They're entitled to their criticisms, just like I'm entitled to think it was perfectly fine. But as I recall, most of the criticisms came from people who hadn't seen the movie and didn't understand the reason for it.

 

hork said: Frankly, I think the word "yellowface" is more offensive and derogatory than the actual act you speak of.

You think the naming of a practice of racial caricature is more offensive than the actual practice?

 

I think referring to Asians as "yellow," even in the context of an anti-racist criticism, is more offensive than Norbert Leo Butz wearing makeup to appear Asian.

 

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 8:49am

That is utterly preposterous. The word is in reference to the makeup. Finding the calling out prejudice more offensive than prejudice is an enormous social problem. 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 9:31am

As an Asian person, I find it truly offensive people continue to think that yellowface isn't a thing that happens in our society and history of entertainment. It is an actual thing. It is never correct. That includes a potential Tony-winning performance by Norbert playing a Vietnamese man. Yellowface, redface, blackface, etc. are not offensive terms; the act itself is what is offensive. How long will it take for people to find the actual practice of yellowface offensive? My goodness, we've come so far in denial that we're now finding the WORD offensive?

Again, put simply: "Asian makeup" on non-Asian person = yellowface. That is the definition and the terminology. The practice of yellowface is offensive.

[hork]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 12:18pm

You're both completely missing my point. Nobody is saying yellowface isn't a thing, and I'm certainly not saying that calling out prejudice is offensive. Just saying, maybe perpetuating the idea that Asians are "yellow" with the word "yellowface" (which, like Asians themselves, is not actually yellow) is not ideal.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 12:26pm

And you are missing the point of the word. It is not saying that Asian people are yellow, it is DESCRIBING the stereotype and the offensive portrayal of Asian folks by non-Asians, which historicslly has often included altering skin tone through makeup. 

Updated On: 3/27/16 at 12:26 PM

[hork]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 12:30pm

But in describing it, it's also perpetuating it. But whatever, this isn't something I feel strongly about it, it's just a thought.

[KathyNYC2]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 1:09pm

Regardless, having seen Jon Jon Briones in the part multiple times, he will always be The Engineer to me. 

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 4:43pm

For the record, I also knew people involved with the initial casting of ''Miss Saigon,'' which is how I found out about the controversy. I heard that Equity really hoped to resolve the matter discreetly, but at some point, they couldn't make any headway. It became a battle of principles and power. Equity was standing up against ''yellowface'' and sticking up for actors of color, and Mackintosh was standing up for Jonathan Pryce and resented being challenged on how he cast his shows. (I, for one, believed that ''Miss Saigon'' would've been a hit whether or not Pryce starred in the show. It was the next big show from the ''Les Miserables'' creators; plus, I recall a lotta hype about the staging of the helicopter, etc., etc.)

If Mackintoh simply said, ''I cast Pryce because I believe he's the best one to play the Engineer, period,'' that's one thing. But ''Miss Saigon'' claimed to have made a ''worldwide search'' for an Asian actor and declared that none could play the role. Only after Equity approved Pryce for Broadway, the show admitted that it hadn't made that search, and regretted the ''misunderstanding.'' (Could you imagine that happening with any other ethnicity? For instance: ''We made a worldwide search and couldn't find any black (or Latino) actor who could possibly play that role, so we're going with the white guy. ... Oops. We didn't make that search.'' )

As for the fight to cast Asian actors, I'm not sure that ''The Heat Is On,'' a documentary made by the show, is necessarily the most unbiased source. One Asian-American actor with Broadway credits told me he wanted to play the Engineer and was flat-out told he couldn't do the role. Another actor didn't get his shot until Pryce had left. I believe Mackintosh's mind was made up about Pryce, so he dug in. Back then, Mackintosh didn't believe the critics of his casting had a valid point. Now, fortunately, he does.

There's a long history of ''yellowface'' in this country, especially at the movies, where Caucasians played Asian stereotypes, like Charlie Chan, Mr. Moto, Fu Manchu, etc. But the battle isn't over, even a quarter of a century after ''Miss Saigon.'' Last year, Dallas Summer Musicals cast a Caucasian to play the Siamese ruler in ''The King and I.'' (It was later recast.) In a recent regional ''Thoroughly Modern Millie,'' Bun Foo and Ching Ho were played by white actors. ... It comes down to this: If it's considered offensive and racist to allow Caucasian actors to appear African-American (as in ''blackface'' ), it should be just as offensive and racist to allow Caucasian actors to appear Asian (as in ''yellowface'' ).

 

Updated On: 3/27/16 at 04:43 PM

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 5:29pm

Just looked up what Pryce looked like with the London makeup for the first time, and holy moly that's terrible. 

[astromiami]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 6:15pm

This is pretty disgusting:

http://adventuresinvertigo.blogspot.com/

[astromiami]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 6:21pm

It is still shocking that people do not seem to realize that it is different when the dominant culture plays the non-dominant culture than when the non-dominant plays the dominant.

Or maybe it is just that white people do not realize that they (and everyone else) lives in a white world.

On another note, It was interesting that later in the Broadway run, Ellen was played by an Asian actress as an American-Asian character.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 7:07pm

Wayman_Wong said: "For the record, I also knew people involved with the initial casting of ''Miss Saigon,'' which is how I found out about the controversy. I heard that Equity really hoped to resolve the matter discreetly, but at some point, they couldn't make any headway. It became a battle of principles and power. Equity was standing up against ''yellowface'' and sticking up for actors of color, and Mackintosh was standing up for Jonathan Pryce and resented being challenged on how he cast his shows. (I, for one, believed that ''Miss Saigon'' would've been a hit whether or not Pryce starred in the show. It was the next big show from the ''Les Miserables'' creators; plus, I recall a lotta hype about the staging of the helicopter, etc., etc.)

If Mackintoh simply said, ''I cast Pryce because I believe he's the best one to play the Engineer, period,'' that's one thing. But ''Miss Saigon'' claimed to have made a ''worldwide search'' for an Asian actor and declared that none could play the role. Only after Equity approved Pryce for Broadway, the show admitted that it hadn't made that search, and regretted the ''misunderstanding.'' (Could you imagine that happening with any other ethnicity? For instance: ''We made a worldwide search and couldn't find any black (or Latino) actor who could possibly play that role, so we're going with the white guy. ... Oops. We didn't make that search.'' )

As for the fight to cast Asian actors, I'm not sure that ''The Heat Is On,'' a documentary made by the show, is necessarily the most unbiased source. One Asian-American actor with Broadway credits told me he wanted to play the Engineer and was flat-out told he couldn't do the role. Another actor didn't get his shot until Pryce had left. I believe Mackintosh's mind was made up about Pryce, so he dug in. Back then, Mackintosh didn't believe the critics of his casting had a valid point. Now, fortunately, he does.

There's a long history of ''yellowface'' in this country, especially at the movies, where Caucasians played Asian stereotypes, like Charlie Chan, Mr. Moto, Fu Manchu, etc. But the battle isn't over, even a quarter of a century after ''Miss Saigon.'' Last year, Dallas Summer Musicals cast a Caucasian to play the Siamese ruler in ''The King and I.'' (It was later recast.) In a recent regional ''Thoroughly Modern Millie,'' Bun Foo and Ching Ho were played by white actors. ... It comes down to this: If it's considered offensive and racist to allow Caucasian actors to appear African-American (as in ''blackface'' ), it should be just as offensive and racist to allow Caucasian actors to appear Asian (as in ''yellowface'' )."

 

I would also be curious if Mackintosh's digging in of his heels (and concocting outright lies about the casting process) on Pryce was influenced at all by the fact that it was the second time Equity took issues with importing the London-based star of one of his productions. 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 7:18pm

I saw "Asian Ellen" on Broadway and I loved it. Added many new layers to the story and characters. Race was not ignored. I am so curious to know how this casting decision came to be. I think it's a brilliant one. 

This is a different scenario than casting the Engineer. This is not one race playing another. Ellen's race is never brought up. We just know her nationality; she is American.

[Jallenc32]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 7:34pm

As far as I'm concerned the only role in the whole show that can't be played by an Asian performer is Chris since he has to have passed down his western features to his son.  I'd love to see an Asian John and Ellen in the same production.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 3/27/16 at 11:58pm

ScaryWarhol, if you think Pryce looked terrible in ''yellowface'' as the Engineer in London, try Googling the image of John Wayne as Genghis Khan in ''The Conqueror.'' Or Marlon Brando as an Okinawan villager, Sakini, in ''Teahouse of the August Moon.'' Or Mickey Rooney as Yunioshi, the buck-toothed Japanese neighbor in ''Breakfast at Tiffany's.'' There are soooo many cringeworthy and cartoony examples. I always found it strange that in the old movies that a white guy (like Warner Oland or Sidney Toler) would play Charlie Chan, but they would always cast an Asian-American (like Keye Luke) to play his son. It's as if Hollywood considered Asians only good enough to play supporting roles, but not leads. Decades later, Luke would play Master Po in ''Kung Fu,'' the 1972 TV series about a martial-arts hero in the Old West. Bruce Lee was considered to star, but the role went to David Carradine. Over 40 years later, there's finally an Asian-American starring as a martial-arts hero on TV: Daniel Wu in TNT's ''Into the Badlands.''

Hollywood is literally blind to Asian talent. Take ''The Last Emperor,'' ''Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon,'' ''Slumdog Millionaire,'' ''Letters From Iwo Jima,'' ''Memoirs of a Geisha'' and ''Life of Pi.'' Except for ''Memoirs,'' all of them are Best Picture nominees or winners. Collectively, they represent 50 Oscar nominations. Yet NONE of those films collected a single acting nomination, even though their actors - John Lone, Michelle Yeoh, Ziyi Zhang, Dev Patel, Suraj Sharma, etc. - received Golden Globe, SAG or BAFTA nominations, etc. Gee, I wonder if the fact that the Academy membership is 94% white has anything to do with it ...

 

Updated On: 3/28/16 at 11:58 PM

[Taryn]

Posted: 3/28/16 at 11:22am

hork said: "But in describing it, it's also perpetuating it. But whatever, this isn't something I feel strongly about it, it's just a thought.

It's not perpetuating it: it's calling out the fact that people literally use yellow-toned makeup in order to make themselves appear more Asian.  The idea that calling this out is equally or, God forbid, more damaging than the practice itself is incredibly destructive and harmful to efforts against racism like this.  If you don't feel strongly about it, then don't make the problem worse.

[hork]

Posted: 3/28/16 at 1:40pm

Taryn said: "hork said: "But in describing it, it's also perpetuating it. But whatever, this isn't something I feel strongly about it, it's just a thought.

It's not perpetuating it: it's calling out the fact that people literally use yellow-toned makeup in order to make themselves appear more Asian.  The idea that calling this out is equally or, God forbid, more damaging than the practice itself is incredibly destructive and harmful to efforts against racism like this.  If you don't feel strongly about it, then don't make the problem worse.

 

Okay, that's what I didn't know: that they use yellow-toned makeup. Never seen it myself (since most yellowface I've seen is in old black and white movies), but I'll take your word for it.

 

Updated On: 3/28/16 at 01:40 PM

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/28/16 at 6:04pm

HeyMrMusic said: "I don't know how an Asian person would tone down their ethnicity, but that also sounds wrong and derogatory. Let's put it this way: Whenever anyone of any ethnicity alters their appearance through makeup to look like another ethnicity, it's wrong. Blackface, yellowface, brownface, redface, "whiteface"... None of it is acceptable. It's not a double standard, double agenda, whatever you call it. It's wrong equally across the board. "

 

The Engineer is Eur-Asian. So in your opinion only an actor who is Eur-asian can play the role? So no Asians? 

 

 

Updated On: 4/2/16 at 06:04 PM