#901
Posted: 6/14/21 at 9:54pm
I'm not 100% understanding the controversy of the film...can someone help?
The IN THE HEIGHTS Film Adaptation Thread — Page 37
#902
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:04pm
I'm curious what all of you what have done then to make the show more Afro-Latinx friendly then?
The main issue seems to be casting Vanessa or Nina darker skinned? Can we point to any from the Broadway or touring companies who cast that way? Many Gonzalez? Karen Olivo? Krystal Rodriguez? Nope. I do agree they did seem to pick very light skinned Latino actresses, but I also thought they were pretty good in it.
Would people really not be complaining online still if they had the dad be anti-black like in the show? I still think these issues would have arisen.
I understand the sadness people feel about it, but I'm still unclear what the solution was.
#903
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:10pm
Does anyone remember the controversy when Corbin Bleu joined the Broadway company as Usnavi? People were upset because he was Jamaican rather than Dominican (or they wrongly assumed he was non-latino black? I'm not sure what the proper term here is) and Lin weighed in with this statement:
"...Now THIS is sensitive, and I'm hesitant to begin again
But I'm a Puerto Rican-Mexican; I PLAYED Dominican.
And everyone's from everywhere, we are reppin' so many things
Andrea's Venezuelan and Jewish, Karen's like twenty things
So yes, I see your point, but ethnicity's just a factor
They've gotta play the part: in the end, dude is an ACTOR."
The full statement is here: https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/LinManuel-Miranda-Rhymes-His-Corbin-Bleu-Endorsement-on-BWWs-Message-Boards-20091209
I don't really have a point to make, I just find it interesting how things have changed.
Updated On: 6/14/21 at 11:10 PM
#904
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:15pm
i’m really glad that lin has held himself accountable but i’m side eyeing his statement. how are you going to paint a mosaic with just one color? you didn’t fall short you simply purposely didn’t try. they should have and could have done more for black latinx representation way before they started filming. you can’t just make a movie about a predominately black latinx neighborhood and exclude black latinx people. it’s unacceptable. there are afro latinos in the cast but they are all beige/light skinned. and washington heights is not that beige at all. they reduced the dark skinned afro latinos to background talent and i find that insulting. washington heights isn’t a “melting pot of black and latinx people” it’s literally known as little dominican republic. it is heavily dark skinned afro latinx and it has been like this for a very long time. i still visit washington heights from time to time and all i ever see are black dominicans everywhere. this movie would have been the perfect opportunity to have dark skinned afro latinos in leading roles but they missed the mark. i hope for the next latinx movie we see dark skinned afro latino representation in the forefront. colorism and anti blackness in hollywood is a very serious issue and it still needs to be discussed.
#905
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:24pm
kidbroadway2 said: "I understand the sadness people feel about it, but I'm still unclear what the solution was."
My cynical answer: there is no solution. If they perfectly represented Afro-Latinos, some other group would be inherently underrepresented and that would be the controversy instead.
For any work of art X, some percentage of the people that experience X will be offended by some aspect of it. This is true for all X, and usually doesn't say anything particularly interesting about the work one way or the other.
Combine this cynical reality with the fact that news organizations recently discovered that articles with the best return-on-investment are of the "People Offended About X"-variety. They are incredibly easy to research and write, and have disproportionately high engagement. That means low-effort media outlets (LA Times, for example) will absolutely thrive on these type of articles.
The publicity brought by the media creates a feedback loop where the "I'm Offended On Twitter" folks see that they have the teensiest bit of power to move the needle, and they redouble their efforts to be vocally offended. More offense means more articles means more power means more offense.
It's a cycle that we won't break free of until "eyeballs-on-news-articles" is no longer a profitable business, however that might happen.
teddy1996 said: "i’m really glad that lin has held himself accountable but i’m side eyeing his statement."
As a side note, whenever these outrages happen (on the daily), someone always tries to "apologize" believing it will somehow fix it. It won't. It never has. People like teddy respond, in unison, "it's not enough". If they accepted the apology, it diminishes their power, which is the underlying reason they're outraged in the first place.
Apologizing is consistently the most pointless PR move you can do. It just gives the media an opportunity to write another clickbait "X Apologizes" story that gives the whole thing an extra day of legs. The correct move is to just identify the outrage as frivolous and continue to live your life as though it doesn't matter. Because it doesn't.
Updated On: 6/14/21 at 11:24 PM
#906
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:40pm
I’m not sure “if someone takes offense to something, you should ignore it and call it ridiculous” is the message we should be taking from this, but given your posts in the Rudin threads I’m somehow not surprised.
#907
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:44pm
Frivolous, not ridiculous.
I should also note that when I say "identify it as frivolous" I don't mean the artist should get on a soapbox and yell "THIS IS FRIVOLOUS." I mean, to themselves, acknowledge the outrage is just a part of making art. And they can recalibrate on their next work if they want, but otherwise just take it in stride and it will pass.
Updated On: 6/14/21 at 11:44 PM
#908
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:49pm
@ctorres23, I think there's some truth to what you're saying about how these things go viral, but I don't think that negates the actual complaints at play.
As I, and others, have pointed out, it seems like this one stings for some people in particular, because there's already so little representation for dark-skinned Afro-Latino people, and this is a movie that claims to celebrate a real-life community where, significantly, a lot of Afro-Latino people actually live. And I think the complaint is that out of 9 or 10 major characters (which is already a lot for a movie) there are 0 dark-skinned Afro-Latinos, which again, is significant because of the specific community people portrayed. You could say about almost any movie that there's "not enough dark-skinned Afro-Latino" people and you'd technically be right, but people don't get outraged, because most movies don't take place specifically in neighborhoods where a lot of Afro-Latino people live.
If an Afro-Latino person feels hurt or stung by this, that's valid, and we should make space for those feelings. And likewise, if they feel that they can't personally enjoy the movie as a result, that makes sense too. Do I think the movie should be "cancelled" or tossed in the cultural rubbish bin as a result? Should we focus exclusively on that issue, to the point of ignoring all the rest of the good qualities of the movie? Should we make other people feel guilty for liking it despite these issues? No on all counts.
It's possible to reconcile all of these things clashing, yet co-existing truths. It's difficult, but possible. And I think society would be better if we tried.
I can say personally that this is something I'm still working on: when this issue came up, my heart sank, because I loved the movie, but I don't want to feel like I'm contributing to these problems. As we speak, I'm sitting with that discomfort, processing it, and working to settle into the fact that I can love this movie, even though the criticisms about it are valid.
#909
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:53pm
kidbroadway2 said: "
The main issue seems to be casting Vanessa or Nina darker skinned? Can we point to any from the Broadway or touring companies who cast that way? Many Gonzalez? Karen Olivo? Krystal Rodriguez? Nope. I do agree they did seem to pick very light skinned Latino actresses, but I also thought they were pretty good in it.
What the Broadway/Touring show did 10+ years ago shouldn't have any bearing on what they did when they brought it to a mainstream audience like this. Actually, I take it back because see above Lin has addressed points similar to this in the past when casting the stage show. He knew what the complaint was below the surface waiting for him when this movie ultimately was released. Lin is a great guy, but he grew up in an upper class privileged life that left him with blind spots.
Would people really not be complaining online still if they had the dad be anti-black like in the show? I still think these issues would have arisen.
And they kept the casting the same? Yes they would because it's a combination of both of them that is the issue.
I understand the sadness people feel about it, but I'm still unclear what the solution was."
Cast more Afro-Latinx people. Nina was Afro-Latinx but very light skinned which leads more to that being a coincidence than intention. They didn't cast this movie trying to reflect Washington Heights. It was an oversight that went through many layers of people who dropped the ball and then tried to compensate in the dancers. You know they did it intentionally once they started production when they realized what happened given that was Chu's go to point "Did you see the dancers?"
It was oversight that fell because of a lack of more Latinx people in the production side with Lin & Quiara (both light skinned and not Afro-Latinx) being that only representation. It just highlights the bigger representation issues that plague Hollywood Productions.
What I do think is incredibly ****ty is putting this question on the actors. It is not their job to cast a movie, it's to audition for a role (and for most of them this is their first large role in a mainstream project). Don't ask them to answer for why there isn't more Afro-Latinx representation and hang them out to dry and let people ridicule them online for a question you had no business asking them. Give to the director. To Lin. To other Producers.
Updated On: 6/14/21 at 11:53 PM
#910
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:55pm
teddy1996 said: "i’m really glad that lin has held himself accountable but i’m side eyeing his statement. how are you going to paint a mosaic with just one color? you didn’t fall short you simply purposely didn’t try. they should have and could have done more for black latinx representation way before they started filming. you can’t just make a movie about a predominately black latinx neighborhood and exclude black latinx people. it’s unacceptable. there are afro latinos in the cast but they are all beige/light skinned. and washington heights is not that beige at all. they reduced the dark skinned afro latinos to background talent and i find that insulting. washington heights isn’t a “melting pot of black and latinx people” it’s literally known as little dominican republic. it is heavily dark skinned afro latinx and it has been like this for a very long time. i still visit washington heights from time to time and all i ever see are black dominicans everywhere. this movie would have been the perfect opportunity to have dark skinned afro latinos in leading roles but they missed the mark. i hope for the next latinx movie we see dark skinned afro latino representation in the forefront. colorism and anti blackness in hollywood is a very serious issue and it still needs to be discussed."
so what is your solution?
you want Lin to release all the people who got callbacks for Vanessa and Nina, we watch all their tapes and then decide who was best for the part?
#911
Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:57pm
ctorres23 said: "kidbroadway2 said: "I understand the sadness people feel about it, but I'm still unclear what the solution was."
My cynical answer: there is no solution. If they perfectly represented Afro-Latinos, some other group would be inherently underrepresented and that would be the controversy instead.
For any work of art X, some percentage of the people that experience X will be offended by some aspect of it. This is true for all X, and usually doesn't say anything particularly interesting about the work one way or the other.
Combine this cynical reality with the fact that news organizations recently discovered that articles with the best return-on-investment are of the "People Offended About X"-variety. They are incredibly easy to research and write, and have disproportionately high engagement. That means low-effort media outlets (LA Times, for example) will absolutely thrive on these type of articles.
The publicity brought by the media creates a feedback loop where the "I'm Offended On Twitter" folks see that they have the teensiest bit of power to move the needle, and they redouble their efforts to be vocally offended. More offense means more articles means more power means more offense.
It's a cycle that we won't break free of until "eyeballs-on-news-articles" is no longer a profitable business, however that might happen.
teddy1996 said: "i’m really glad that lin has held himself accountable but i’m side eyeing his statement."
As a side note, whenever these outrages happen (on the daily), someone always tries to "apologize" believing it will somehow fix it. It won't. It never has. People like teddy respond, in unison, "it's not enough". If they accepted the apology, it diminishes their power, which is the underlying reason they're outraged in the first place.
Apologizing is consistently the most pointless PR move you can do. It just gives the media an opportunity to write another clickbait "X Apologizes" story that gives the whole thing an extra day of legs. The correct move is to just identify the outrage as frivolous and continue to live your life as thoughit doesn't matter. Because it doesn't."
--
do you have a link to that article? would like to see it.
Also agreed, all this led to is the main in the heights articles today being, "LIN MANUEL APOLOGIZES FOR__" which is just bad publicity.
I think Lin should have just responded to a specific twitter user and NOT made a big statement out of it. this isn't helping at all agreed with your PR points
#912
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:02am
TheatreFan4 said: "kidbroadway2 said: "
The main issue seems to be casting Vanessa or Nina darker skinned? Can we point to any from the Broadway or touring companies who cast that way? Many Gonzalez? Karen Olivo? Krystal Rodriguez? Nope. I do agree they did seem to pick very light skinned Latino actresses, but I also thought they were pretty good in it.
What the Broadway/Touring show did 10+ years ago shouldn't have any bearing on what they did when they brought it to a mainstream audience like this. Actually, I take it back because see above Lin has addressed points similar to this in the past when casting the stage show. He knew what the complaint was below the surface waiting for him when this movie ultimately was released. Lin is a great guy, but he grew up in an upper class privileged life that left him with blind spots.
Would people really not be complaining online still if they had the dad be anti-black like in the show? I still think these issues would have arisen.
And they kept the casting the same? Yes they would because it's a combination of both of them that is the issue.
I understand the sadness people feel about it, but I'm still unclear what the solution was."
Cast more Afro-Latinx people. Nina was Afro-Latinx but very light skinned which leads more to that being a coincidence than intention. They didn't cast this movie trying to reflect Washington Heights. It was an oversight that went through many layers of people who dropped the ball and then tried to compensate in the dancers. You know they did it intentionally once they started production when they realized what happened given that was Chu's go to point "Did you see the dancers?"
It was oversight that fell because of a lack of more Latinx people in the production side with Lin & Quiara (both light skinned and not Afro-Latinx) being that only representation. It just highlights the bigger representation issues that plague Hollywood Productions."
---
Ok so to be clear: your SOLUTION is to cast Nina to be dark skinned Afro-Latinx person no matter what?? What about chemistry reads? So we're just casting around that and whichever most fits that role we then make Benny based around her? That's ridiculous.
I think the best thing they could've done is made Sonny be dark skinned Afro_Latinx and the problem is solved. That part is a lot easier to cast.
The main point is that there were no easy answers. I think it's really unfortunate this issue has taken down what should be a really welcoming, diverse movie that in no way was trying to white wash anything.
Melissa could have just had better chemistry with Anthony than whoever else was there. It sounded like both her and Nina were constantly being swapped on the last day of callbacks so they clearly didn't have an idea either, just what worked chemists wise.
--
I understand the frustration but I think aiming it at Nina and Vanessa (which seems to be the case based on their "whiteness" on twitter) is not it. They could have just cast Daniela, Carla or Sonny in that part.. or even made the secondary supporting characters more diverse in that sense and it helps a bit. Too bad.
Updated On: 6/15/21 at 12:02 AM
#913
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:03am
>>> you want Lin to release all the people who got callbacks for Vanessa and Nina, we watch all their tapes and then decide who was best for the part?
When you're casting to represent a community you have to cast for that community. "Best" for the part encompasses more than just acting and singing abilities in this regard. The actors are hired in a vacuum. They can look at the other people they've cast.
Ok so to be clear: your SOLUTION is to cast Nina to be dark skinned Afro-Latinx person no matter what?? What about chemistry reads? So we're just casting around that and whichever most fits that role we then make Benny based around her? That's ridiculous.
Let us be ENTIRELY honest here. The casting in the movie is fine. There's not really any stand out performances of note that are getting lauded. So to pretend like casting someone Dark Skinned is risking some amazing chemistry is a little silly. Anthony Ramos was cast without auditioning with anybody. Jon wanted him specifically so he got him and at that point all Vanessas had to work off of him. Not mix and match. But again let me be honest,Melissa is not irreplaceable. Nothing up on that screen said "Yes! It had to be her!"
Updated On: 6/15/21 at 12:03 AM
#914
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:07am
and i’m not understanding how lin didn’t feel seen. if anyone in the latinx community is gonna have representation it’s always going to be white passing puerto ricans like him. white latinos are EVERYWHERE like c’mon now. this colorism concern has been raised since the musical premiered on broadway, yet he acts like it’s a new conversation whenever the concern is brought up. so, like what’s there left for you to learn, mr miranda? this is not an apology for me to accept or not accept. i’m just confused as to how he acts like this is a new concern.
#915
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:11am
TheatreFan4 said: ">>> you want Lin to release all the people who got callbacks for Vanessa and Nina, we watch all their tapes and then decide who was best for the part?
When you're casting to represent a community you have to cast for that community. "Best" for the part encompasses more than just acting and singing abilities in this regard. The actors are hired in a vacuum. They can look at the other people they've cast."
so now we're not casting things off talent and chemistry? we're doing what's best for the community? this is a joke, these are not white people they cast, these are ALL POC.
#916
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:12am
"In the Heights" but it's just 120 minutes of security camera footage pointed at the corner of 182nd & Broadway. Perfect movie, flawless representation of the neighborhood.
#917
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:15am
TheatreFan4 said: "Ok so to be clear: your SOLUTION is to cast Nina to be dark skinned Afro-Latinx person no matter what?? What about chemistry reads? So we're just casting around that and whichever most fits that role we then make Benny based around her? That's ridiculous.
Let us be ENTIRELY honest here. The casting in the movie is fine. There's not really any stand out performances of note that are getting lauded. So to pretend like casting someone Dark Skinned is risking some amazing chemistry is a little silly. Anthony Ramos was cast without auditioning with anybody. Jon wanted him specifically so he got him and at that point all Vanessas had to work off of him. Not mix and match. But again let me be honest,Melissa is not irreplaceable. Nothing up on that screen said "Yes! It had to be her!""
---
Who is saying that??? Again - LETS SEE THE TAPES. Casting someone just "because" is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying Melissa is irreplaceable, but you're saying "let's not judge off talent, it's more important we do X instead".
There was no major risk to casting otherwise, but it shouldn't be the REASOn someone is cast. I guarantee they wouldn't want that either, it's patronizing.
#918
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:20am
kidbroadway2 said: "so now we're not casting things off talent and chemistry? we're doing what's best for the community? this is a joke, these are not white people they cast, these are ALL POC."
And who is getting the Oscar in this cast? There is more that goes into casting than acting/singing ability and chemistry. I guarantee you there were ugly girls who could sing and act their way around the girls who were cast. Didn't matter because they didn't "Look the part" so please save this "best for the role" storyline because they probably cut them in the first round of auditions.
#919
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:21am
EDIT:
Nevermind
Updated On: 6/15/21 at 12:21 AM
#920
Posted: 6/15/21 at 12:59am
So after reading articles and a lot of comments on this today I have a question for anyone who knows or lives in Washington Heights.
Within the Heights, is there any kind of "separation", so to speak, between lighter color Latino residents and darker color residents? I have read here and elsewhere that there is a very large amount darker skin Afro Latinos who reside there. Is there an area where you find mostly lighter skinned Latinos and that is the area represented here? Or did the film just ignore people who are in every part of the community? I have never been to the Heights so this is why I ask. Seeing that Lin wrote the show and had a hand in the movie, does it represent the part of the community he knows or associates with or, again, were people found in the entire community poorly represented?
Just give the world Love. - S. Wonder
#921
Posted: 6/15/21 at 1:00am
can we spare the "best for the parts" excuse? The acting that I saw in the film was mediocre at best except for only Olga and any chorus girl or guy would have nailed those parts easily. and did we talk about how the casting for the film was done by 2 white people? This is the problem here.
#922
Posted: 6/15/21 at 1:13am
sng said: "and did we talk about how the casting for the film was done by 2 white people? This is the problem here."
People with less melanin in their skin are notoriously bad at casting.
#923
Posted: 6/15/21 at 2:17am
TheatreFan4 said: "kidbroadway2 said: "
I understand the sadness people feel about it, but I'm still unclear what the solution was."
What I do think is incredibly ****ty is putting this question on the actors. It is not their job to cast a movie, it's to audition for a role (and for most of them this is their first large role in a mainstream project). Don't ask them to answer for why there isn't more Afro-Latinx representation and hang them out to dry and let people ridicule them online for a question you had no business asking them. Give to the director. To Lin. To other Producers.
"
--
You're acting as if you know EXACTLY who auditioned for this part and who was "robbed" of the part they so rightfully deserved. It seems obvious a combo of the producers/Lin etc wanted a "pop star' type for the parts and that's what they got.
Updated On: 6/15/21 at 02:17 AM
#924
Posted: 6/15/21 at 2:21am
TheatreFan4 said: "kidbroadway2 said: "so now we're not casting things off talent and chemistry? we're doing what's best for the community? this is a joke, these are not white people they cast, these are ALL POC."
And who is getting the Oscar in this cast? There is more that goes into casting than acting/singing ability and chemistry. I guarantee you there were ugly girls who could sing and act their way around the girls who were cast. Didn't matter because they didn't "Look the part" so please save this "best for the role" storyline because they probably cut them in the first round of auditions."
You are literally saying knowing how the cast was, that the most important aspect of casting was their physical appearance and the "diversity" of the cast in order to be what is best for their community. This is so patronizing.
#925
Posted: 6/15/21 at 3:32am
I feel like all this controversy is only going to hurt the box office of this film even more. I didn't really like the direction of it and didn't really think it was the spectacle people were making it out to be. It wasn't really mu thing but if others liked it and it made them happy then more power to them. :)
I hope going forward we get a very colorful version of Oz and they cast an even mix of people of color where they can.
Updated On: 6/15/21 at 03:32 AM
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