The Perfect Musical? — Page 4

CC/FN - as a man of academia, what would you use to deem a musical as "perfect"?

3. West Side Story
2. Fiddler on the Roof
1. Ragtime

Musicals, as a whole, are works of art and art is completely subjective.

Headband, you are simply wrong, no matter how many times you say it. Reread Aristotle's POETICS for an objective standard for Greek tragedy.

That's not to say you and I may not have a subjective preference for an objectively inferior work. Personally, I'm more interested in the conflict of ANTIGONE (and even Aristotle admits it produces the strongest emotion from spectators), but Aristotle is right that OEDIPUS is the most nearly perfect unrolling of action and plot.

Similarly, I've never cared much for the subject matter, emphasis on dance or sentimental ballads of WEST SIDE STORY. THOSE ARE ALL my subjective complaints, however, and have no place in PJ's objective Top Ten.

Updated On: 6/24/14 at 08:42 PM

I believe that there are five perfect musicals, with a couple that are close.

In my opinion, the "perfect" musical is defined by the following categories: every moment, whether sung, acted, or danced, MUST move the story forward in an actionable way. In addition, it is entertaining, and if well cast, is pretty near impossible to mess up as the material can carry itself...you could do them on a bare stage with a piano and a good cast and the material would still stand.

In my opinion, there are only five musicals that do that to a "t":
OKLAHOMA!
GYPSY
GUYS AND DOLLS
FIDDLER ON THE ROOF
WEST SIDE STORY

Musicals that are close, but don't QUITE hit that mark, include:
MY FAIR LADY
SHE LOVES ME
CAROUSEL
SOUTH PACIFIC
pretty much any major Sondheim piece
and honestly there are a lot of great musicals that come close...but those come to mind for me

Now, I have a lot of "favorite" musicals that don't fit these categories at all. I think that a "perfect" musical does exist...whether on not you LIKE said musical is up to you.

EDIT: I digress. A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC is deserving of a spot in the "perfect five", now a perfect six.

Updated On: 6/24/14 at 09:02 PM

I agree with jnb9872's sentiments. True, being "about something" (which it certainly is, I think it's a momentous work of art with a terrible reputation) does make OKLAHOMA! better and more palatable of a show overall, but what makes OKLAHOMA! perfect is that it defined a formula - it is meticulously constructed so that every moment not only informs the plot but moves it forward. Every dance move, every word, every note.

I'll add my vote to the aforementioned Gypsy and A Chorus Line. I'll also add Hedwig and the Angry Inch (it's one of the few musicals I love that I personally feel doesn't have a single song that's a clunker).

I'm glad Liza's Handbag taught us about the concepts of objectivity and subjectivity in this thread. There's never been a thread before that didn't deal in empiricals, and no one would have ever been able to get through this thread without him!

Headband, I got interrupted, but I want to readily concede that the existence of objective standards doesn't mean every critic uses the same standard or even that any two critics must agree.

inlovewithjerryherman lists his objective standards very clearly a few posts above, as have many others in this thread (and some are admittedly hard to quantify--"entertaining"--but not impossible). Sondheim claims he cares most about form following content. Brecht wants theater to promote critical thinking; OKLAHOMA! wouldn't make his list at all because Brecht would find the show's famous cohesion a fault rather than a virtue. Etc. and so forth.

But that doesn't make all artistic criteria subjective. It just means that in attempting to have an objective discussion, we have to state our criteria clearly and keep a sharp eye out for creeping subjectivism.

Updated On: 6/24/14 at 09:22 PM

Another great post, jnb. I know I'm repeating myself in places, but I actually like G&D and can't come up with a new argument against it every time we talk about it.

This is NOT a problem with the show to me, but am I confused or does Sky take Miss Adelaide to Havana and back in less than 18 hours? (It always seems like just overnight to me.) That's a trip of over 2,600 miles in the days before commercial jet travel. AND they stop to sing a duet while they are out of the country!

(I found one site that shows a TWA ad offering Phoenix/Chicago (roughly equivalent r.t.) in 12 hours, but that's five years later and may reflect the arrival of jets.)

Again, not a central factor in the action, so I'd don't care. I just always end up calculating air miles while they sing "If I Were a Bell".

Updated On: 6/24/14 at 09:41 PM

CC/FN - as a man of academia, what would you use to deem a musical as "perfect"?

What am I meant to do now, accessory? Just engage in a public online conversation with you now? After everything?

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With respect, Headband, I think you misstate the question.

It is NOT whether there is a work of art that every human being in every culture will admire equally? (You're right: they lied when they told us "music is the universal language". All art is based on conventions, "rules" which vary widely from culture to culture, place to place and, even, person to person.)

It IS, according to a given set of standards, does a particular work meet all the criteria?

That was the point of the dada "found object". According to one set of conventions, a urinal is a perfect work of art.

Updated On: 6/24/14 at 10:30 PM

What *are* the criteria?

Headband, if you read the posts just on this page you will find that most of us have been openly defining our criteria as we go. And that's the way it should be.

Nobody is calling for a Ministry of Culture to dictate universal rules for the Broadway musical. On the other hand, if we all just shrug and say "everything is subjective", then it's all just random typing. Because I have no way of comparing your opinion with Regi's or mine.

Thanks in no small degree to you, at least in this thread we can see that several different systems of objective criticism are being employed.