What I don't get Les Miz plot hole

[winston89]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 12:33pm

after listing to the Les Miz CSR and seeing the revival a few times there is just one thing that doesn't make sense to me plot wise.


After Javert sees Veljean lift the cart to rescue the man, he tells Valjean bout how he was reminded about a man who ran away from jail a few years ago. He also said that he is sure that the man is Jean Valjean because he has 24601 branded on him.

Part I don't understand is that if they looked at the guys skin for a 24601 branding won't they realize that he is not valjean ?

[Neverandy]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 12:40pm

He says that Valjean reminds him of a man from years ago. But when pressed he then tells valjean that he couldn't be because they already have that man in custody and he is due in court that day. I just wanted to clear that up because your post was a little confusing.
That being said, I have always wondered about that part of the show too.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 12:55pm

"He says that Valjean reminds him of a man from years ago. But when pressed he then tells valjean that he couldn't be because they already have that man in custody and he is due in court that day. I just wanted to clear that up because your post was a little confusing.
That being said, I have always wondered about that part of the show too. "

I think you misunderstood. The question is: shouldn't they have known that the man they caught is NOT Jean Valjean by checking his skin to see that he doesn't have the nunmber branded? I mean, clearly, if the man does not have 24601 on his body (is it the chest?), then it's not Valjean.

[jynni]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 12:58pm

If, I remember right, in the book, the NotValjean has some sort of birthmark/scar/somethingorother that resembles a 24601 brand.

[DG]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 1:07pm

Isn't Javert intentionally leading Valjean to reveal himself? I thought it was a trick.

[qwerty2]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 1:09pm

In the book, they say that it's just like a black line across the chest and you can't really tell the numbers.

^I'm not sure if that's 100% correct.

[Weez]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 1:10pm

I don't think they branded the number itself on Valjean's skin; I remember it being just a vaguely rectangular blur. Isn't it possible Javert's caught another ex-con? That's what I always assumed.

[keen on kean]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 1:48pm

The part of that line that I don't understand is I thought ValJean was released after serving his time - and the bishop didn't press charges - so what exactly are they picking up ValJean for this time?

[StageManager2]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 1:50pm

He broke his parole and went underground under an assumed name.

[keen on kean]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 2:29pm

Thanks!

[winston89]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 3:27pm

Stage Manager, I know he went underground under an assumed name. However, that doesn't logically answer the qustion. Just cus Valjean changed his name doesn't mean that the number that was branned on his skin went away. It would seem that it would be as simple as thinking that you have valjean and then checking the number to see if that is the right guy.


Also, in the book it never really talked about the branding in length. It just said that he was transported to Toulon where they branded him with the number 24601. In the shoow its just a black rectangular smuge. Only to make the perpouses of make up easier because the only time the audience sees the number is when valjean shows it to Javert during who am I.

[Bwaymom]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 3:31pm

I'd like to add another question. The answer is probably in the book (which I have not yet read), but it confuses me in the show. How does Thenardier know that Valjean is an ex-con with a brand upon his skin? In the show their only previous contact was when he rescued Cosette. In the scene when Thenardier's gang goes after Valjean and Javert's comes to help, Thenardier tells him that Valjean is the man he has been looking for.
I always wondered how he knew that.

[theminutepast]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 3:47pm

I think Thenardier becomes a little obsessed with Valjean after he takes away Little Cosette, partly because Valjean dresses like a beggar but pays quite a lot to take Cosette. He researches Valjean and finds out about him at Montfermeil, and believes Valjean murdered and robbed Madeliene. So he assumes he is already criminal.

Correct me if this is slightly off.

[javertim]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 3:48pm

The "brand" Valjean is talking about -- the brand that Valjean and also, presumably, Champmathieu (the man arrested in his place) has -- is just a black bar, not a number. The bar is clearly visible during the Prologue as well as at the end of "Who Am I." Also, in the book, Champmathieu is taken back to prison where several of the inmates incorrectly identify him as Jean Valjean,

The question about how Thenardier knew that Valjean was a criminal is not explained in the musical. In the book, Javert -- knowing that Valjean would go after Fantine's kid -- tracked Valjean to the Thenardier Inn and questioned and arrested Thenardier as a result. Thus, Thenardier had always harbored a deep, dark hate for Valjean and, knowing him to be very rich, is quick to jump him when he sees him many years later.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 3:56pm

winston89: My post was in response to Keen on Kean's inquiry. He wanted to know why the law (specifically, Javert) was after him, since he'd already finished serving his prison term and the Bishop hadn't turned him in after he stole the silver.

[popculture37]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 3:57pm

"Isn't Javert intentionally leading Valjean to reveal himself? I thought it was a trick."

In the musical, you could view it this way-it doesn't really make it clear. In the book, it's a much longer scene (one of my favorite scenes in the entire novel) and it's definitely not a trick. Javert is actually turning himself in for having improperly acted on his suspicions of the mayor being Jean Valjean.

Doesn't Thenardier's line about the brand on Valjean's chest come immediately after he attacks him? I seem to remember Thenardier grabbing Valjean by the shirt at one point during the attack, which would maybe rip the shirt and allow him to see his chest.

[javertim]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 4:07pm

Actually, it's Montparnasse's line, but it's no longer in the show (it was removed as part of the 2000/2001 cuts). It occurred just before "The Attack on the Rue Plumet."

[popculture37]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 4:49pm

Isn't the scene that Bwaymom is talking about several songs earlier than the attack on Rue Plumet? I think there are (or were, they may have been cut) lyrics that showed Thenardier's recognition of Valjean's ex convict status during The Robbery, something along the lines of "You know me,I'm a con just like you" just after he grabs him, so I assumed that he saw the brand then, which is why he is able to mention the brand when Javert shows up a few seconds later.

[jasonf]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 6:12pm

Actually, you CANNOT view the scene as Javert tricking Valjean. The whole point of Javert's character is that he firmly believes that Valjean is incapable of doing the right thing. The ruse, if it were to work, would depend on Valjean feeling guilty about the wrong man being arrested, and Javert would NEVER suspect that from a con ("once a thief, always a thief"). In the book it's a mistake, though one that reads as too much of a coincidence for me (I read somewhere once that in novels so large in scope such as this or Dickens' books, that small coincidences need to be forgiven if the overall plot is to move along - I guess this is small enough, and is dealt with in such a way that it can be overlooked).
Speaking of which, someone explain this line to me: "Nothing's overlooked till I'm satisfied" -- isn't that the exact opposite of what he means (since he's singing about how he's rooking the guests...)

[Dover]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 6:22pm

I've always assumed that the guy picked up as the false Valjean was another former convict who had a number branded on him, and Javert didn't remember Valjean's number in particular, but the guy fit the basic description and the brand proved he could have been Valjean. I don't think Javert refers to him as 24601 between the time he leaves the chain gang and when Valjean reveals himself in "Who Am I", so it's possible Javert didn't know what number he was looking for (assuming in those days it was not as easy for law enforcement to access records).

[ThankstoPhantom]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 6:26pm

"Nothing's overlooked till I'm satisfied"

I haven't seen the show in 3 years, but doesn't he sing this to the guests, putting on a "public display," then moving into the kitchen to reveal his disgusting concoctions and schemes?

[jasonf]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 6:57pm

Yes- but why would the guests want things overlooked? I would think they would want the exact opposite. Was this something lost in translation?

[theaterkid1015]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 9:00pm

2460(slightly blurred 7)!

That's what we thought of when I did Valjean last fall.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 9:08pm

"I don't think Javert refers to him as 24601 between the time he leaves the chain gang and when Valjean reveals himself in 'Who Am I',"

Actually, at the very beginning Javert says (uh, sings):

Now bring me prisoner 24601
Your time is up
And your parole's begun...

* * *

And I'm Javert
Do not forget my name
Do not forget me
24601

[MaronaDavies]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 10:05pm

The show's different from the novel, of course...in the musical, I always did assume that Thernardier spotted Valjean's number when he grabbed at his coat. It's not Rue Plumet, it's the scene right after "Look Down" and before "Stars;" Valjean and Cosette are walking through San Michel and encounter Thernardier. He has a line that goes something like "don't forget, you're the bastard who borrowed Cosette..." and then a scuffle breaks out.

For Javert, I also always assumed he just forgot the specific number and picked up someone similar to Valjean. After the cart scene, when Javert's talking to Valjean about the case, he says "this time there is no mistake," sort of implying that it's not the first time he's picked up a "possible Valjean."

"I don't think Javert refers to him as 24601 between the time he leaves the chain gang and when Valjean reveals himself in 'Who Am I',"

Actually, at the very beginning Javert says (uh, sings):

Now bring me prisoner 24601
Your time is up
And your parole's begun...

Those lines are from the chain gang scene though...Javert never does mention 24601 again until "Who Am I." And in the Broadway blocking, at least, while Javert's singing that, he's referring to the yellow ticket and a book of prison records, so he mightn't have known the number down pat even then.