Why Does Michael Riedel hate "Hamilton"?- Page 4

[HogansHero]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 1:39pm

@Matt "surge in tween/teen/twentysomething fans"

what's significant is that Hamilton transcends age-based fandom. And the important  lost generation of theatregoers are not so much the millennials as the 35-50 crowd. Eminem is 42, not 22. 

@mamaleh "Why the difference in reception?" 

The Neverland publicity is manufactured to draw attention to the show. The Hamilton publicity is derived from what happens organically in the theatre. To suggest that one should be criticized for gaining attention by doing exceptional work is mind-boggling-out of whack with every notion of what the theatre should strive for.

@indytallguy " feels a bit like the typical pop culture trajectory" 

Think about what you are saying and try to tether it to the nature of show. What have the Hamilton people done other than make theatre at the highest level any of us can aspire to? What you are suggesting is nihilistic. 

[Kad]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 1:42pm

Indyguy is right, though. There is a distinct backlash cycle in popular culture: typically, something is hyped up, reaches a tipping point in which it is now fashionable to backlash against the hype, then that evolves into discourse, and then it all levels out. Hamilton is reaching a hype saturation point.

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 1:45pm

my thing isn't even really about the show. its the constantly hearing people wetting their pants about it. sooo annoying. 

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 1:47pm

Your "thing" can't be about the show. You haven't seen it.

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 1:54pm

I think that it's ridiculous to hate a show because everyone is talking about it and it's getting a lot of publicity.

Maybe people are wetting their pants about it because it's something truly special.  If you haven't seen it (like me) you do not have the right to make a judgment about the show itself.

[JayG 2]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 1:54pm

"Hamilton Box Office Opened Today. Will Also Open Tomorrow!"

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 1:57pm

^If you are made so upset by the news being covered by this website, then you can always feel free to leave.

No one is forcing you to read those articles.

Updated On: 7/23/15 at 01:57 PM

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:02pm

JayG 2's attempts at sarcasm are pedestrian and laughable. Why someone would spend so much time on anything they have such disdain and contempt for is beyond me but yet here it is for everyone on the board to witness.

[skies]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:09pm

" The Neverland publicity is manufactured to draw attention to the show. The Hamilton publicity is derived from what happens organically in the theatre. To suggest that one should be criticized for gaining attention by doing exceptional work is mind-boggling-out of whack with every notion of what the theatre should strive for.  "

I know what you mean about how Miranda/Hamilton hasn't done anything to warrant hostility, but on Finding Neverland.

Harvey's meddling and promotion/Tony show insertion were annoying, but if the whole point was to generate "attention to the show", I don't see how it was harmful to Finding Neverland itself.  People/media can dismiss his tactics, but so far they seemed to have worked.

 

[mattyp4]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:19pm

I agree.  I thought the show was fantastic but the hyperbole has been off the charts since it began performances at the Public.  (And full disclosure: I was there that first week of previews.  I saw the 4th performance, which was that first Friday night.)  

Great show & very deserving of all the excellent reviews.  But I'm still trying to wrap my head around some of the "It will change the face of American musicals forever" stuff. 

I think I know why people are saying that & I like what the Hamilton peeps are doing... but I mean, some of the hyperbole can be turned down a notch or two.  That only creates backlash.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:19pm

Kad,

There can be a backlash to hype. But (like most things) it is not categorical. There are, sometimes, cultural achievements that are so widely recognized as exceptional that any "backlash" is marginal and populated by people who are predisposed to contrarianism and/or who are just miserable malcontents, dispeptic divas, obstreperous ogres, etc.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:31pm

Skies,

Harvey (and everyone else) gets to decide how to draw attention to their shows, and to take the bitter with the sweet. In the short run, the combination of attention and other factors has dealt the show a sweet hand. But it may have been at a cost: the Tony shut out. As one of the wise men of the theatre has said to me, producing means not discounting the importance of every single ticket you can sell. Will the absence of any awards hurt the show after the original company wanders off or as the show hits the road with a bunch of nobodies? Harvey is not an experienced theatre producer, and we will have to wait and see if his strategy maximizes the result. The timeline of revenue flow from movies is very very different.

[newintown]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:38pm

"...miserable malcontents, dispeptic [sic] divas, obstreperous ogres, etc."

AKA "people with opinions different from mine."

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:45pm

I wonder if HAIR and A CHORUS LINE were met with any sort of backlash when they transferred from the Public to Broadway. When HAIR opened it was considered (by some) to be revolutionary, so much so that it was the show that would singlehandedly change the face of American Musical Theater, ditto ACL.

Granted, the internet and social media were not around back then but there was television, print media and radio - - - I imagine billboard advertisements were extensive as well.

 

 

Updated On: 7/23/15 at 02:45 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:47pm

I'm sure that, over drinks at Joe Allen's, people were equally vicious.

[Hamilton22]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 2:58pm

Great show & very deserving of all the excellent reviews.  But I'm still trying to wrap my head around some of the "It will change the face of American musicals forever" stuff. 

I can agree with this. As much as I love Hamilton (I've seen it 3 times) I think the "Will change Musical Theater" hype is rubbing people the wrong way. I can see why. 

While there is nothing wrong with being excited about a show, I've noticed some on this board (and even my personal theater friends) have gotten very preachy when they talk about Hamilton and claim it is the best show of the century. It very well may be the best show of the century, but hearing it taunted around everywhere like it's the next best thing since slice bread, can get really old. So I understand where some criticisms are coming from. The criticisms have nothing to do with the show, just the over-hyped statements some are saying about it.

That being said, I think it should be noted that the Hamilton Cast and Creative have remained entirely humble throughout the process. I've never once heard LMM saying his show is the best thing ever. I'm sure he is happy with it but still knows it's not perfect yet.

I'm not even sure where this whole "Best Show of the decade" "Will change Musical Theatre" originated from. Newspapers perhaps?

I know the reviews were great off-Broadway, but I can't seem to recall any professional reviewer saying Hamilton is changing the game of Musical Theater. If anything, I think Fun Home is doing that more than Hamilton. 

I remember the Wall Street Journal saying it's the most Significant Musical of the decade...but that's not really the same thing. 

In any case, I have found a wonderful passion for this musical. I absolutely love it and I  don't think the show needs anyone to stick up for it when it speaks so beautifully for itself. Whether or not it's a "game changer" is really unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 3:04pm

If it was a new Sondheim show that was getting this much attention I'm sure we wouldn't be hearing so much backlash, except maybe from AfterEight.

[skies]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 3:13pm

"Skies,
Harvey (and everyone else) gets to decide how to draw attention to their shows, and to take the bitter with the sweet. In the short run, the combination of attention and other factors has dealt the show a sweet hand. But it may have been at a cost: the Tony shut out. As one of the wise men of the theatre has said to me, producing means not discounting the importance of every single ticket you can sell. Will the absence of any awards hurt the show after the original company wanders off or as the show hits the road with a bunch of nobodies? Harvey is not an experienced theatre producer, and we will have to wait and see if his strategy maximizes the result. The timeline of revenue flow from movies is very very different."

Definitely, the final results of Harvey's strategy is up in the air as far as financial success.  Oof course hindsight is 20/20 but  I think Finding Neverland wasn't going to get many Tony nods regardless, at least not enough to market it as such.

I'm annoyed that many, including Harvey , seem to imply he's the primary reason for the major Tony awards shutout. 

Updated On: 7/23/15 at 03:13 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 3:53pm

Devil's advocate query here re the publicity angle: Never mind the qualitative difference between the shows, but Harvey Weinstein was roundly castigated for his publicity shenanigans on FINDING NEVERLAND, while Miranda's efforts in that vein are pretty much readily accepted. Why the difference in reception?

I think the personalities of the individuals also play a part in how their efforts are received.

what's significant is that Hamilton transcends age-based fandom. And the important  lost generation of theatregoers are not so much the millennials as the 35-50 crowd. Eminem is 42, not 22. 

Oh, I was just responding to the previous post about the "younger age group".

To suggest that one should be criticized for gaining attention by doing exceptional work is mind-boggling-out of whack with every notion of what the theatre should strive for.

That's what I find odd as well.  Especially the attitude by those who haven't seen it and are irked by the praise.  They may actually agree with it.

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 4:33pm

I wonder how long this will run. I give it 5-6 years

[CindersGolightly]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 4:57pm

"my thing isn't even really about the show. its the constantly hearing people wetting their pants about it. sooo annoying."

You mean the way you consistently piss yourself whenever people call you out for being wrong 98% of the time? I think the press on this show is super annoying, but not as annoying as you are.

"I wonder how long this will run. I give it 5-6 years"

Aw, how cute. This is sorta like when you said "Honeymoon" would be a hit, or when you said "On the Town" was going to close before the Tonys! We don't want your trajectory on "Hamilton", although it is an opinion, you treat it like fact. I wouldn't be surprised if you've already posted "an industry insider told me that Hamilton is going to run for oooonnnly 5 yearsss, u guys beliveve that?? u should its fact." on another board. Get out of here, you insignificant slip of a pre-teen.

Updated On: 7/23/15 at 04:57 PM

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 5:05pm

"my thing isn't even really about the show. its the constantly hearing people wetting their pants about it. sooo annoying. "

This is pretty illustrative of your past posts. If you don't see why many people here have trouble taking you seriously, then you really lack self-awareness.

You've been rooting for this show to fail, and you have been wanting ANY show to beat it at the Tonys despite the fact that you don't know much about the actual content of Hamilton or the other shows you are now supporting. If you're so susceptible to hype and other people's opinions, then maybe you should get off the Broadway fandom and gain some perspective. I understand what it's like to get way too deep into these sorts of things to the point that it only becomes a competition (Tonys, Oscars, etc.), but you have to remember that art transcends that bull**** sports mentality.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 5:13pm

@newintown "AKA "people with opinions different from mine."

No, that's utterly not what that means. I am speaking of people who kvetch about things they have not seen, and just enjoy being contrary. There is a specific example of a post on this thread that embodies each of my alliterations.

@Hamilton22, I agree about the game-changer language (and that it is coming from reviewers and commentators, not the production. It is facile, and the truth is, people in the present are inherently ill-equipped to have a basis for assessing what "game" is "changed" by anything. I think it makes much more sense to look back and say that the show is better/more significant etc than anything in recent (or not so recent) memory. Those judgments are obviously subjective but what I find pathetic is that much of the traffic minimizing Hamilton is coming from those who have not seen it. 

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 5:13pm

Phillypinto, you haven't seen HAMILTON and the shows you are rooting for like SCHOOL OF ROCK haven't even opened yet so how is anyone supposed to take your opinions seriously? 

 

[indytallguy]

Posted: 7/23/15 at 7:57pm

@indytallguy " feels a bit like the typical pop culture trajectory" 
Think about what you are saying and try to tether it to the nature of show. What have the Hamilton people done other than make theatre at the highest level any of us can aspire to? What you are suggesting is nihilistic. "

 I didn't say the Hamilton people had anything to do with the backlash now did I, so dial down the accusations of nihilism please. Nor did I say they should be criticized for the attention.  It's a great show and deserves kudos for a variety of reasons.

But whether the attention given to a ___ (insert show name, actor, song, food trends, etc.) is organic or generated, this backlash is not an unusual cycle within popular culture.  We've seen it before and we will see it again. That's the only point I was trying to make.

Updated On: 7/23/15 at 07:57 PM