MIT and Watertown Police dramas, right now. 1 officer killed, 1 at large. Oy.- Page 8

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 2:33pm

My understanding is that anything is says would not be admissible; the info is to be used only to ensure public safety.

Maybe one of our lawyer friends can inform us.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 2:34pm

Right, PJ, that's my understanding too (for what that's worth).

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 4:03pm

Sue, is it in your DNA that despite all your blather to the contrary, your default mode is to fall back on the police state model? Of course I have base desires for revenge against this guy, but if you think not Mirandizing him is somehow the right thing to do, then I question your understanding of the laws of this country you swear is better than the one you "escaped." Having to point this out to you reminds me of having to explain patterns of abuse to an abuse survivor accused of abusing someone else.

Updated On: 4/20/13 at 04:03 PM

[Plum]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 5:53pm

Actually, as I recall an un-Mirandized public safety interrogation does need to be narrowly focused, but the results are admissible. That's why there's such a fight over it.

Ideally under the rules, they'll interrogate him about any present threat to public safety, and if there isn't one, move on to a Mirandized interrogation. It really, really shouldn't make the difference between conviction and release. Updated On: 4/20/13 at 05:53 PM

[sabrelady]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 7:05pm

Like osama these animals are not criminals theyre enemies of the state . Theyre also traders and have committed treason so they do not have rights as an American citizen who is just accused of a crime. You should be pretty safe if you're not planting bombs or flying airplanes into buildings.

If he did this in Russia and got caught he probably would be without his eyeballs and Private parts

THIS is TOO funny! I mean I KNOW that Stalin Killed off the most intelligent and the most individualistic and what was left suffered further deprivations during other regimes to the point that only the most basic survival instincts were left to breed, Dog Eat Dog in all its most primitive glory but the un-invisible ghoul illustrates it to the point of absurdity!

[Yawper]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 7:27pm

They have not committed treason. Treason is a very specific charge.

The whole 'war on terror' concept is bull****. War is against a sovereign state, not roaming murderers.

[suestorm]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 7:43pm

I think Miranda is very important and prevents abuse by the police against people who may or maynot have commited a crime. But again these are not criminials. They are terrorists. Even the UN acknowledge s that different international. Laws exist. For them they are more soldier then criminal. So like in zero dark thirty they get no lawyer looking for loopholes to set them free.


The definition. Of treason is turning against your country. Which is what this animal who is a citizen. Did.

[Plum]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 7:49pm

I'm really puzzled as to how the criminal justice system is unequipped to deal with this. Terrorism is a crime. Oy. Like, literally right there in the federal code. There seems to be no shortage of evidence that at the very least this guy was shooting at federal officers - itself a federal crime - and throwing illegal explosives around. He's going to prison for life with perfectly regular criminal procedure. The only reason to vary by holding off on Mirandizing him is to see if there was a larger plan that's presenting a public safety risk in the immediate future.

[Yawper]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 7:56pm

If these guys were terrorists, what was their stated political goal?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 8:24pm

Again Sue, most of us recall your fetishization of the word "terrorism" the other night. So it's probably useless to point out to you that this case was cracked by the criminal justice system, not the military. The state and federal justice systems have iron clad cases against this kid. Your fretting that there is any chance he'll be released on a technicality is just your paranoid fantasy and one that will never ever become reality. Laws like the mandatory reading of the Miranda rights are not just in effect for people who "deserve" them. They are for everybody. I would love it if you could think about and explain to me why you seem so willing to suspend the laws? What parts of a police state are so enticing to you and why? Why are you in favor of the country you love more than the one you came from becoming like that country?

[Kad]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 8:29pm

The Constitution on treason: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

John Marshall famously ruled that intent wasn't sufficient in a charge of treason- an act of war had to be committed. Given how little we know about the motives, at this time the actions of the suspect cannot be called treason.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 8:44pm

The family of 8 year old victim Martin Richard issued a statement thanking the various law enforcement departments for capturing the suspect and saying they trust the justice system will now "do its job."

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 9:13pm

Plum has already explained the public safety exception to Miranda, so I won't rehash it again, except to say that in 2010 the FBI and with the Obama Justice Department's blessing, took an expanded view of the exception in terrorism cases. See the attached.

With regard to Treason - um no. There is no evidence of that (and one was not a US Citizen, so it would not be possible for that person to have been charged with Treason). With the information we have, unless there were other attacks planned and not carried out, I cannot see how this charge could stick.

With regard to the charge of terrorism, it really depends on what the objectives were behind the bombings - which so far, we have no clue. While we may call someone a terrorist because his/actions terrorizes a community, that does not mean that he/she is actually a terrorist for criminal justice purposes. Generally, terrorizing people (which this did) without a political/social end or objective to the act of terror, would not be considered terrorism for purposes of criminal prosecution. Was the Sandy Hook shooter a terrorist? How about the Aurora shooter? The intention to inflict mass damage and destruction alone generally does not = terrorism for criminal prosecution. We may find a social/political component to the bombings, and if that is the case, then the charge of terrorism would be appropriate.

As the Oklahoma City Bombing Case clearly shows, crimes like these can (and in my opinion should) be tried in the daylight, for all the world to see. Osama Bin Laden was caught and killed based upon police work, and these men were caught because our law enforcement and our citizens worked together to find them and hold them accountable. We are a nation of laws, and our laws and our criminal justice system will send this man away for the rest of his life, if not take it from him.


Public Safety Exception

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 9:44pm

Sue--if you use the word "animal" one more time, I'm going to have to waterboard you.

Here's a terrific article in the NY Times about the Miranda and the use of the public safety exception:
NY Times: Debate Over Delaying of Miranda Warning

[SNAFU]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 9:54pm

Thanks PJ, that sort of answered my question earlier.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 9:57pm

Anyone else think Sue has a touch of the bloodlust?

She'd make a great Abigail in THE CRUCIBLE.

[strummergirl]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 10:34pm

"If he did this in Russia and got caught he probably would be without his eyeballs and Private parts."

You seem to imply an eagerness for this method than rule of law. I agree with Borstal.

"So like in zero dark thirty they get no lawyer looking for loopholes to set them free."

Ugh, stop ruining and twisting things- particularly pop cultural touchstones that I like (still side-eying the hell out of you desecrating Elizabeth Jennings with each following post) since your viewer literacy along with your handling of critical discussions on US foreign/legal/international law policies are out of whack.


Updated On: 4/20/13 at 10:34 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 10:41pm

I think it's the Russian thing, don't you? We follow the rules here and we go by the book and we read people their rights and we guarantee them an attorney regardless of the ability of the accused to pay for the services because we are the greatest nation on earth and we don't want to hand Chechen parents any excuse to claim their sons were framed.

PJ I agree with you on the "animal" thing (and feel similarly about the phrase "lawyer up") but I know she has a tendency to focus on a point like that and to avoid responding to the substance. I long to hear why she wishes the process in this case more resembled that of the corrupt government of her former homeland?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 10:48pm

What's her former homeland? I thought it was Ohio.

Couple things bothering me. You know that 7-Eleven they supposedly robbed?

Well, they didn't rob it.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/04/19/tsarnaev-brothers-didnt-rob-a-7-eleven-spokesperson/

And you know that car they hijacked after bragging to the owner that they bombed the Marathon?

Well, where'd that car end up? And why hasn't that guy they confessed to been all over the news?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 10:53pm

The last newscaster who got through to him said he "had tears in his voice" (sic) and said he did not want to talk anymore.

It was the car the brothers were hiding behind in the Watertown shoot out.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 11:13pm

That kind of modesty is so unusual nowadays.

Two friends of the Tsaraevs were arrested this afternoon.
NY Daily News: Friends of accused Boston bomber are taken into custody in New Bedford, Mass.

[Wynbish]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 11:15pm

The definition. Of treason is turning against your country. Which is what this animal who is a citizen. Did.

How? Did you turn? One sentence? Into Four "Sentences"?

[Yawper]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 11:16pm

Aside from dealing with his own trauma, the carjacked guy would be a material witness - cops might have asked him to lie low.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 11:24pm

I just can't figure out why they would (a) confess to him and (b) let him go. They'd already killed the MIT cop in cold blood, not to mention the cold blood it took to blow up the marathon.

Why'd they let him go?

And I also can't shake off the police description of how Tamerlan was killed: by Dzhokhar trying to run down the police who just cuffed his brother, the police jumping out of the way--like in a movie!--and the car running over the brother's body.

Accidental fratricide.

It's almost Shakespearean.

And who are these two buddies the cops just arrested?

[strummergirl]

Posted: 4/20/13 at 11:25pm

suestorm claimed she was from the Ukraine, right? I've met Russian and Ukraine students in college. The countries don't like each other at all but neither country post-Cold War represents a stable or model democracy.

Whatever. I think suestorm's only knowledge of Miranda rights are that it is featured in every Law & Order episode ever made.