Lloyd Webber vs. Puccini- Page 2

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 9/4/11 at 10:16pm

Quoting Sousa in the middle of the attempted Roosevelt assassination in ASSASSINS is a reference to the type of music the military band would actually be playing at that event (and, for all I know, actually did play) PLUS it juxtaposes some of the most famous patriotic music in American history with the ultimate NON-patriotic act, trying to kill the president. A recurring theme in the show is that we view assassins as somehow "outside" American history and culture, but they view themselves as very much "American".

Now it's your turn: how does a quote from GIRL OF THE GOLDEN WEST help a scene in a Webber musical that actually takes place BEFORE the music being quoted was written?

[PitPro2004]

Posted: 9/4/11 at 10:43pm

"I think you're thinking of Paganini?"

Thanks Chewy, you know I swore I was going to stop drinking BEFORE posting on this board, I can see I didn't learn my own d*mned lesson!!

Still...my original point stands. He took practically the whole piece and just inserted drums as far as I am concerned. Takes balls to sit there and say you wouldn't change a note of something you blatantly copied.

[MusicMan]

Posted: 9/4/11 at 11:08pm

Michael Feingold expressed it best in a review many years ago:
Listening to Andrew Lloyd Webber is like walking down the halls of a music conservatory with all its doors open.

Enough said.

[BialyBloomInc02]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 1:04am

I know Mel Brooks admittedly tipped his hat to many iconic musical numbers with The Producers score (King of Broadway has a lot of Reviewing the Situation in it and Heil Myself was based on Garland's 'Howdy Neighbour/Happy Harvest'). However, I was shocked as hell to discover that the majority of 'That Face' is lifted note-for-note from the chorus of 'High and Low' from The Band Wagon. Take a listen...that is some weird wild stuff!

[musikman]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 1:31am

The beginning of Music of the Night is also exactly the same as the beginning of Come to me, Bend to me from Brigadoon.

[bk]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 2:24am

Well, if you're going down this road then you have to include Sondheim's No One Is Alone/The Candy Man - same exact first six notes - so what? Different use, different tempo. Some of the examples in the plagiarism video on You Tube are laughable. Yes, Music Of The Night uses about eight notes of the Puccini but with more notes in the phrase. Most composers, at one time or another, have written something that someone will say is something else. Jerry Herman and the very obscure song Sunflower. Did Herman hear that song before writing Hello, Dolly? Really really doubtful. Hum the opening of How High The Moon and then do What Kind Of Fool Am I. It's not plagiarism it's coincidence.

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 2:34am

"Still...my original point stands. He took practically the whole piece and just inserted drums as far as I am concerned. Takes balls to sit there and say you wouldn't change a note of something you blatantly copied."

It's called a variations on Paganini's Theme...

The fact is, all composers steal from each other. Puccini was just as guilty as Lloyd Webber, but no-one is old enough to remember. The important thing is, they don't necessarily do it on purpose, as has been mentioned many times in this thread.

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 2:55am

P.S, this is what Lloyd Webber thinks of these accusations:

[chewy5000]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 4:38am

No one would care if Phantom wasn't the most mega of hits

If Sondheim (oranyone else for that matter) had that same level of popularity, there would be obscure bands coming out every day to sue him...

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 7:48am

So does anyone have any idea how much Lloyd Webber paid the Puccini estate in this particular out-of-court settlement?

Would it have been a token sum or a portion of his royalties in perpetuity?

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 8:05am

Did Puccini need the money?

LOVE NEVER DIES is a copy too.
First time I heard it I said, I know that song.

[BroadwayFuture462]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 8:09am

Not to mention Bolero and Memory from CATS are nearly the same song.
Also, has anyone ever listened to the opening of Rosemary in How To Succeed....it's EXACTLY the same as Jesus Christ Superstar.

Certain composers want you to hear melodies they've worked into scores, yes that is true and I think "How I Saved Roosevelt" in Assassins is a great example. HOWEVER. I don't honestly believe that is Webber's intention. I genuinely just think he is an awful composer who steals melodies, and how any of his shows have had success boggles my mind. Good for him, but I just don't get it.

[gvendo2005]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 8:52am

While we're talking about Superstar plagiarism... (enter the expert fan):

* "I Don't Know How to Love Him" is from a violin concerto by Mendelssohn
* The main guitar riff in "Damned for All Time" owes more than inspiration to the Sixties Batman theme
* Other people have pointed out (non-specific) "influences" from Orff, Stravinsky, etc.

[metropolis10111]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 10:52am

End of the day Webber's shows have been the introduction to theater for more people then most any other composer out there outside of R&H and for that I think he deserves his place in the theater hall of fame. There is nothing new to really talk about here in the thread. It's been over and beaten to death with a stick a dozen times over. Those that like his works... quite frankly don't care about things like this. People that don't like his work will never give in ANY do for ANY note he ever wrote so .. really what is the point ... neither side is willing to budge and like it or not Webber's shows still sell and new generations find their way into the folds of musical theater via their sister's copy of Phantom or their dad's copy of JCS. Is that REALLY a bad thing?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 11:02am

The main guitar riff in "Damned for All Time" owes more than inspiration to the Sixties Batman theme

Two beats of double sixteenth notes is all they share in common. They're not even the same intervals.

Not to mention Bolero and Memory from CATS are nearly the same song.

The first 5-6 notes of Memory are similar to Bolero (though not exactly the same). Both use 6/8 time. That's as far as it goes.

The beginning of Music of the Night is also exactly the same as the beginning of Come to me, Bend to me from Brigadoon.

It's the first four notes. Both of which resemble the song School Days. Who stole what from whom?

Well, if you're going down this road then you have to include Sondheim's No One Is Alone/The Candy Man - same exact first six notes - so what?

Well, it's Sondheim, so he gets a pass. Webber is an object of contempt and Sondheim is an object of adoration. They must be treated differently, you see. It's funny because recently I was listening to an old Broadway flop and I distinctly heard a melody that sounded EXACTLY like a Sondheim tune. I wish I could remember what it was now (It might have been from Maggie Flynn or A Time for Singing). I thought about posting it on this board, but I knew it would just turn into a Webber attack and the Sondheim topic would be ignored.

As for the lawsuit, the only guilt Lloyd Webber had to admit to was that 12 notes match up (more than the allotted 7), whether intentional or not. A settlement probably would have been cheaper than rewriting and rerecording the score. Not so coincidentally, the lawsuit didn't occur until the show's success had been grounded.

[metropolis10111]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 11:15am

Marry me Matt :)

[sparrman]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 11:28am

The first six notes of "Candy Man" and "No One is Alone" are NOT identical, they are different rhythmically.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 11:33am

Well, you are going to Show Boat with us, metro? We can use the time to disparage Webber for recycling the song Love Never Dies while praising Kern's Bill, which he recycled from Oh, Lady! Lady!

Praise to Kern and distaste for Webber with double-standard firmly in place. That's a TRUE musical theatre fan. Just be sure that when you attend either Candide or West Side Story, you blithely ignore the shrill three-note motif they share in common.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 11:47am

This may be nothing more than an urban myth, but it has made it's way through the "theatre folk" on both coasts. I first heard it in NY in the '80s ...

It basically told a story of how Sondheim stole the entire Night Waltz theme (A Little Night Music) from an eager composition student who sent it to him for his opinion of the work. They apparently settled out of court sometime in the mid '70s.

I have NO proof or any idea if it's true. I do know that i heard this same story on both coasts from two unrelated sources. Again, it could easily be an urban myth, but it did make the rounds.

As far as all this plagiarism talk, it's extremely difficult to prove in a court of law. Things have to be identical. Not "sort of" identical or "almost" identical. I've been a member of ASCAP for over 20 years now, and I spoke one time at length with a music lawyer about the subject. He said the works in question usually had to have 9 consecutive notes and/or lyrics to be considered plagiarism. (This was before the "sampling" craze which initially resulted in many law suits---and samples are different, because it's a copyrighted recording. Sampling any part of a recording, even just one recognizable chord or riff is an infringement). You also have to prove access to the material in question when you sue for copyright infringement. That gets very tricky as well, trying to prove beyond question that the composer heard the work before he wrote his own piece.

Here's an interesting Wiki article on the subject. You might also want to check out "musical quotations," too, which are intentional notes used to suggest a song without fully plagiarizing it. Puccini took a bit of the Star Spangled Banner in Madame Butterfly to help characterize his American officer. Things like that.



Wiki link

Updated On: 9/5/11 at 11:47 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 11:51am

By the way, another composer who got "slapped around a lot" with soundalike composing was Bernstein. He was always being accused of ripping off Aaron Copland.

Listen to Copland's El Salon de Mexico and see if you cant hear America and I Feel Pretty from WSS. I mostly hear it in the arrangements and the underscoring "vamps." But he took a lot of flack for it at the time.

EDIT: Here's El Salon de Mexico on YouTube .. listen around the 3:10 mark, and you can hear a little something that sounds an awful lot like the "Somewhere Ballet," too.
LINK

Updated On: 9/5/11 at 11:51 AM

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 11:56am

"Two beats of double sixteenth notes is all they share in common. They're not even the same intervals."

It's two bars, and they are.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 12:11pm

Picking on Sondheim a little more, the first time I heard the "God, you are so beautiful..." section of the opening number from Passion, I immediately thought it sounded uncannily like "Unexpected Song" from Song and Dance. This, of course, means nothing; it's just a memory that came to mind as I read this thread.

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 12:32pm

Best12, I heard the same story about NIGHT MUSIC, but it was about Boris Aronson, not Sondheim. A student said the idea of the trees was stolen from him by his teacher, Boris. I think these stories are from disgruntled students who were looking for some attention. Knowing the talents of Steve and Boris, I tend to believe they don't have to steal from amyone.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 12:46pm

^ That may very well be true, but check out that Wiki article link if you don't think "reputable" songwriters can be sued successfully in plagiarism law suits.

Updated On: 9/5/11 at 12:46 PM

[musikman]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 1:23pm

I think part of the issue here is that while yes, most composers do borrow/quote from others before them, it seems as if it's a running theme with Webber. Whether it's intentional or not, it seems that many of his most famous melodies/songs happen to be stolen from previous composers.

Also, while this is obviously just an opinion, I'd venture a guess and say that most people believe that Bernstein, Puccini (or even Sondheim) are superior to Webber as composers. Therefore, while you may hear some Copland in Bernstein (Copland was very much a mentor to him), and the main theme of "Somewhere" from WSS comes from Beethoven's Emperor Concerto, it's what they eventually did with those themes, or their body of work as a whole.

I'm not necessarily condoning the act of stealing melodies, however, I'd say that based upon their entire body of work, there is some sort of "justification" for composers like Puccini, Bernstein, and Sondheim to quote/borrow once in a while.