"Dead Mom" from Beetlejuice is the best song ever written- Page 2

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 4:21pm

ctorres23 said: "Let me circle back around to my original point: this person's argument was that the song, and by extension the score was bad, by definition, because of slant rhymes. That was their whole argument.

My argument is that, objectively, that is not true because there are a ton of critically acclaimed, beloved songs that use slant rhymes. Slant rhymes alone do not invalidate the quality of a song. Just off the top of my head here are some non-rap slant rhymes:

From last season's best song, Omar Sharif (came / waves): "The ship from Egypt always came, sailing in on radio waves"

From the Greatest Showman, a triple slant rhyme (dark / parts / scars): "I am not a stranger to the dark; Hide away, they say, cause we don't want your broken parts;I've learned to be ashamed of all my scars."

There are dozens of these in almost every show. If you're a lyrical purist, that's fine, but then your argument isn't so much "Dead Mom is a bad song" but rather "I hate all modern musicals", which, you know, I can understand."

All the examples you’ve listed are of lazy lyric writing. Critical plaudits and popularity are not the same as quality. 

[Midnight Radio]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 4:25pm

macnyc said: "What is the payoff? I saw the show last night and have forgotten it already."

 

SPOILER:

 

Lydia spent the entire show referencing her dead mom ad-nauseum. When Juno, who is revealed to be Beetlejuice's mother, is killed (I think Beetjuice killed her but I was pretty checked out by that point) he says:

"Hey Lydia, look, we both have dead moms now."

Brightman landed that line perfectly, and it stopped the show at the first preview.

Updated On: 4/5/19 at 04:25 PM

Posted: 4/5/19 at 4:56pm

Loopin’theloop said: "All the examples you’ve listed are of lazy lyric writing. Critical plaudits and popularity are not the same as quality."

Agree to disagree. I'm at the point where I appreciate a clever multisyllabic slant rhyme to a forced perfect rhyme. For example, I actually like the "happy/at me" false rhyme, whereas something like "Yeah that was super pimp / My mac daddy game couldn't be more limp" from Be More Chill makes me cringe.

Back on topic, Brightman tweeted the studio recording of Dead Mom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi0FvQ8R-lY

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 5:07pm

I agree that your quote Be More Chill lyric is atrocious too. I’m not trying to suggest that just because lyrics rhyme they are automatically good. I would like to believe we should hope for both perfect rhymes and lyrics that don’t make us cringe. Why settle for the lesser of two evils? 

There’s a lyric in Beetlejuice (don’t know the song titles without a song list) that rhymed Triscuit with statistic. This time Perfect did rhyme his words, but like your Be More Chill example, it made me wince (and laugh derisively). 

I realize that not every lyric is going to compare to The Story of Lucy and Jessie or Hurry, It’s Lovely Up Here, but shouldn’t we hope that they do? 

[bk]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 5:52pm

ctorres23 said: "Let me circle back around to my original point: this person's argument was that the song, and by extension the score was bad, by definition, because of slant rhymes. That was their whole argument.

My argument is that, objectively, that is not true because there are a ton of critically acclaimed, beloved songs that use slant rhymes. Slant rhymes alone do not invalidate the quality of a song. Just off the top of my head here are some non-rap slant rhymes:

From last season's best song, Omar Sharif (came / waves): "The ship from Egypt always came, sailing in on radio waves"

From the Greatest Showman, a triple slant rhyme (dark / parts / scars): "I am not a stranger to the dark; Hide away, they say, cause we don't want your broken parts;I've learned to be ashamed of all my scars."

There are dozens of these in almost every show. If you're a lyrical purist, that's fine, but then your argument isn't so much "Dead Mom is a bad song" but rather "I hate all modern musicals", which, you know, I can understand."

Please just stop.  The Omar Sharif example is not an example - the line you quote is not meant to rhyme and that is obvious if you look at the lyric for the rest of the song - none of the lines in that position rhyme nor were they ever meant to.

The lyrics to The Greatest Showman are lazy.  But the lines you're quoting - I'm not at all sure they were ever meant to rhyme either.  But there are lazy rhymes in every song in that score, like it or not.

I hate fake rhymes - HATE them - in pop songs I'll tolerate them.  In musical theater, I won't, it's that simple.  And of course there are bad lyrics that rhyme and great lyrics that rhyme.  IMO, there are no great lyrics for the B'way theater that have imperfect rhyme.  Please note the IMO.

As to Dead Mom and the other song they put up:  Horrible.  If this is what musical theater is today, leave me out.

Updated On: 4/5/19 at 05:52 PM

[HenryTDobson]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 5:55pm

Wow that song is AWFUL. Caruso's voice is...interesting. 

[zainmax]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 6:15pm

HenryTDobson said: "Wow that song is AWFUL. Caruso's voice is...interesting."

I actually like it... She could probably get a record deal as a pop singer after this!

Posted: 4/5/19 at 6:21pm

bk said: "Please just stop."

I'm all for you disagreeing but this sort of comment is unproductive.

bk said: "The Omar Sharif example is not an example - the line you quote is not meant to rhyme and that is obvious if you look at the lyric for the rest of the song - none of the lines in that position rhyme nor were they ever meant to."

This is subjective, but I think the song clearly sets up that verse to rhyme. It's preceded by:

Friday evening, Omar Sharif
In black and white and blurry through tears
My mother and I would sit there in a trance
He was cool to the marrow, the pharaoh of romance

"Trance" and "romance" rhyme. The next verse is the mirror image of that, about Sunday/Umm instead of Friday/Sharif:

Sunday morning, Umm Kulthum
Her voice would fill our living room
The ship from Egypt always came
Sailing in on radio waves

The rest of the song has several lines that are not intended to rhyme, which is why I didn't quote those obvious non-rhymes. This particular line set up a rhyme pattern that it subsequently didn't follow (though it tried to, with a slant rhyme).

[ahhrealmonsters]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 6:32pm

ctorres23 - I hope you never find yourself in the BMI Musical Theatre Workshop. You will not come out alive with those views on imperfect rhymes.

There are many reasons lyrics should have perfect rhymes. Clarity is a big one - to a "standard" audience member (ie. not someone who's going to see the same show 20 times/listen to the cast recording 100 times), the listener gets 1 shot to understand the lyric. Especially when you get into tricky wordplay, ala Sondheim's Ladies Who Lunch, the audience needs to be able to unconsciously predict the rhyme that's coming (not the actual word, but the sound).

Here's to the ladies who lunch, everybody laugh.
Lounging in their caftans and planning a brunch
On their own behalf.

If these rhymes were not perfect rhymes, I guarantee the audience wouldn't understand all the words. Unlike pop music, the lyrics, which have 1 shot to be heard AND understood to move a story forward and/or develop character.

I get that styles have changed, but IMO they're not changing for the better. Pop MT lyrics with imperfect rhymes and poor scansion are lazy and unclear.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. /rant

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 7:00pm

bk said: "ctorres23 said: "Let me circle back around to my original point: this person's argument was that the song, and by extension the score was bad, by definition, because of slant rhymes. That was their whole argument.

My argument is that, objectively, that is not true because there are a ton of critically acclaimed, beloved songs that use slant rhymes. Slant rhymes alone do not invalidate the quality of a song. Just off the top of my head here are some non-rap slant rhymes:

From last season's best song, Omar Sharif (came / waves): "The ship from Egypt always came, sailing in on radio waves"

From the Greatest Showman, a triple slant rhyme (dark / parts / scars): "I am not a stranger to the dark; Hide away, they say, cause we don't want your broken parts;I've learned to be ashamed of all my scars."

There are dozens of these in almost every show. If you're a lyrical purist, that's fine, but then your argument isn't so much "Dead Mom is a bad song" but rather "I hate all modern musicals", which, you know, I can understand."

Please just stop. The Omar Sharif example is not an example - the line you quote is not meant to rhyme and that is obvious if you look at the lyric for the rest of the song - none of the lines in that position rhyme nor were they ever meant to.

The lyrics to The Greatest Showman are lazy. But the lines you're quoting - I'm not at all sure they were ever meant to rhyme either. But there are lazy rhymes in every song in that score, like it or not.

I hate fake rhymes - HATE them - in pop songs I'll tolerate them. In musical theater, I won't, it's that simple. And of course there are bad lyrics that rhyme and great lyrics that rhyme. IMO, there are no great lyrics for the B'way theater that have imperfect rhyme. Please note the IMO.

As to Dead Mom and the other song they put up: Horrible. If this is what musical theater is today, leave me out."

Exactly 

[bk]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 8:25pm

ctorres23 said: "bk said: "Please just stop."

I'm all for you disagreeing but this sort of comment is unproductive.

bk said: "The Omar Sharif example is not an example - the line you quote is not meant to rhyme and that is obvious if you look at the lyric for the rest of the song - none of the lines in that position rhyme nor were they ever meant to."

This is subjective, but I think the song clearly sets up that verse to rhyme. It's preceded by:

Friday evening, Omar Sharif
In black and white and blurry through tears
My mother and I would sit there in a trance
He was cool to the marrow, the pharaoh of romance

"Trance" and "romance" rhyme. The next verse is the mirror image of that, about Sunday/Umm instead of Friday/Sharif:

Sunday morning, Umm Kulthum
Her voice would fill our living room
The ship from Egypt always came
Sailing in on radio waves

The rest of the song has several lines that are not intended to rhyme, which is why I didn't quote those obvious non-rhymes. This particular line set up a rhyme pattern that it subsequently didn't follow (though it tried to, with a slant rhyme)."

Lyrically those two verses don't scan the same at all: "Her voice would fill our living room" vs. "In black and white blurry through tears" - count the words and syllables in each line.  Same with the next line in each song - totally different scan.  Same with the line that follows - there is nothing at all about those two verses that scan the same in the lines you're saying are meant to rhyme.  Either the scanning is completely inept or the non-rhymes are, but to my eye there is no way Mr. Yazbeck meant that verse to have the rhyme scheme of the first verse.

[missthemountains]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 10:45am

Hello 911? Yes--I'd like to report a criminally insane person who thinks that a song by Eddie Perfect's musical adaptation of Beetlejuice is one of the best MT songs. At this time, I am unsure if they are going to harm themselves or others. Yes, I'll hold.

[missthemountains]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 10:45am

Hello 911? Yes--I'd like to report a criminally insane person who thinks that a song by Eddie Perfect's musical adaptation of Beetlejuice is one of the best MT songs. At this time, I am unsure if they are going to harm themselves or others. Yes, I'll hold.

[MollyJeanneMusic]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 3:33pm

As a songwriter myself, I personally don't think that perfect rhymes are necessary for a good song.  It's always great when you can find one, but to write a powerful song, the trick isn't to write to the rhyme - it's to write to the idea you're trying to convey.  The song "She Used to Be Mine" from Waitress has plenty of slant rhymes, especially in the chorus - and yet it's one of my favorite modern musical theatre songs.  It doesn't mean I don't like a perfect rhyme, but I do think that perfect rhymes aren't absolutely necessary to have a great song.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 4:41pm

I'm a purist, I admit it. There is no better lyric for me on Broadway than one where every line meant to rhyme rhymes perfectly and lands the meaning with the most clarity.

I have lately learned to love certain show scores that were littered with hopelessly imperfect rhymes, but were otherwise remarkable and moving: GROUNDHOG DAY is a great example. But however great that score may be, oh how infinitely BETTER it would have been had Minchin had the skill to make the rhymes actually rhyme?

Also Triscuit and statistic don't actually rhyme.

[SweetLips22]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 4:41pm

From a thread with an unusual subject that I opened with curiosity to start with a few singular comments and to develop into what it has become---I am in awe.

The breadth of knowledge that hides behind those avatars and are sometimes awakened when a topic comes their way---I live to learn---thank you all for contributing.

I can barely understand what singers scream from the stage these days anyway.

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 5:56pm

Someone in a Tree2 said: "Also Triscuit and statistic don't actually rhyme."

Ha, it’s true, they don’t. You know how you say something over and over in your mind until you convince yourself it’s true? By force of will I was going to make a rhyme out of this pair! 

 

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 4/7/19 at 12:03pm

MollyJeanneMusic said: "As a songwriter myself, I personally don't think that perfect rhymes are necessary for a good song. It's always great when you can find one, but to write a powerful song, the trick isn't to write to the rhyme - it's to write to the idea you're trying to convey. The song "She Used to Be Mine" from Waitress has plenty of slant rhymes, especially in the chorus - and yet it's one of my favorite modern musical theatre songs. It doesn't mean I don't like a perfect rhyme, but I do think that perfect rhymes aren't absolutely necessary to have a great song."

and there are choreographers who reuse their material over and over. Comedy writers who hire someone to write their gags. Directors of musicals who have the choreographer stage all the scenes. There are lots of lazy ways you can still make successful work but it doesn’t make it anything less than lazy. True artists who have a deep love and respect for their craft care. Hacks don’t. 

 

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 7/28/19 at 1:07pm

The other thing to keep in mind is that Eddie Perfect is Australian, and words that rhyme in an Australian accent don't rhyme in an American accent. For example, in "No Reason", he rhymes wars with 'cause, which doesn't rhyme in any American accent, but does in the Australian accent. It's like in "The Wizard and I" from Wicked when New Yorker Stephen Schwartz rhymed wishin' with permission.

It's a similar problem with Tim Minchin's music, where when he sings a song, it rhymes, but when Matilda or Phil Connors sings it, it doesn't. The difference is that Tim Minchin uses far more perfect rhymes than accent rhymes in his songs.

In Finishing the Hat, Sondheim writes about perfect and slant rhymes. He says that slant rhymes are like sloppily juggling. It's not as precise as other people can do it, but it's still juggling.

Slant rhymes don't bother me that much, so I can usually overlook them (although the lyricist in me is constantly playing around with words, so I find myself playing a game of "How can I make this rhyme better". There are a lot of other factors in lyrics other than rhyme: syntax, humor, wit, using these components to drive plot and develop character. I think in that respect, even if he doesn't always rhyme perfectly, Eddie Perfect shows a lot of talent as a lyricist. And when his rhymes are perfect or close to perfect, they're pretty damn clever.

[MollyJeanneMusic]

Posted: 7/28/19 at 1:19pm

I do think it's interesting to note that this year's Best Score winner, Hadestown, had I think more slant rhymes than any other Broadway show in history.

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 7/28/19 at 2:22pm

Also, Dave Malloy doesn't even try to rhyme his lyrics, and no one cares.

[VotePeron]

Posted: 7/28/19 at 2:31pm

To bring up Malloy, Sondheim, and Minchin in the same conversation defending "Dead Mom" is...horrifying.

[DoTheDood]

Posted: 7/28/19 at 4:03pm

Alex Kulak2 said: " I think in that respect, even if he doesn't always rhyme perfectly, Eddie Perfect shows a lot of talent as a lyricist. And when his rhymes are perfect or close to perfect, they're pretty damn clever."

Great examples of this are other performances of "The Whole Being Dead Thing" (Tonys, Today Show, album, etc). Every new place they perform, Perfect (I'm assuming he writes them) puts in a few meta lines to change the song up a bit. I wouldn't say I adore the lyrics (for the show normally nor any of the changed ones), but they were both unexpected and self-aware enough to get me to laugh usually. I don't think Perfect is amazing, but he knows how to please an audience (well for BJ at least, King Kong probably says otherwise).

Side note, back to Dead Mom, I always cringe at the "performance seal" line and I'm not sure why. Dead Mom is good for BJ, but the there are a lot of songs on Broadway right now that are far deeper and complex than anything BJ has.

[EllieRose2]

Posted: 7/28/19 at 4:22pm

I love the song solely for Sophia. What a voice!

[Hot Pants]

Posted: 7/28/19 at 6:03pm

VotePeron said: "To bring up Malloy, Sondheim, and Minchin in the same conversation defending "Dead Mom" is...horrifying."

THIS

Dead Mom is fine and it fits in with its show. However, it’s incredibly far from being the best song ever written. It’s not even in the top ten songs written this season

Updated On: 7/28/19 at 06:03 PM