URINETOWN: Copyright Controversy- Page 2

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 9:09pm

well, Starlight Musical Thetre in San Diego should be added to the list then as I saw their production and having seen the Tony performance I can safely say that the choreography at least for "Run Freedom Run" was exactly the same so I would imagine that the rest of the choreography and direction were simply replicated. the sets and costumes were all the same as well, just maybe slight variations here and there.

[HOUFlip04]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 9:13pm

Ah, well I agree that they should be credited if the direction and choreography have been re-created.

[Mattbrain]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 9:15pm

Well, obviously you have to credit them. I didn't even know that these people were failing to do that.

[HOUFlip04]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 9:17pm

Yes, that's one of the issues being discussed. Since the choreographer of the Chicago and Akron production got an award for 'his' choreography. I don't think people would get an award for recreating.

[thevolleyballer]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 9:26pm

Just a funny off-topic note: my drama/economics teacher (I know, what a combination) said that he's got a theory that Urinetown is the "Family Guy" of Broadway... meaning that the show is done so much and opens to such well-received reviews everywhere else that it very much has a chance of going back to Broadway.

Wherein I told him that there are such things as Broadway revivals.

I got a U in citizenship that day.

[outovfashion07]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 9:57pm

I go see shows regularly at a community theatre near here and EVERY show they do is a XEROX.

[Smartful Dodger]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 10:39pm

Community theatre, in my view, is a separate issue. I mean, as dedicated as folks are at a local level, they still want and seemingly have to emulate precendents. They often times don't have the luxury of time or money to experiment, so it "makes sense" that they "borrow" big ideas and concepts. At the end of the day, the money they bring in at the box office supports a love of theatre, the cultivation of a local arts community.

In legitimate or professional theatre, however, there is a different standard and expectation; to "borrow" and not give credit to the original creator(s) in these productions seems contrary to an ethos of creativity and/or collaboration.

While I'm fairly dispassionate about this particular issue, it's tremendously interesting, especially when you consider it in the digital era -- when TV and movie clips get circulated on YouTube, when music clips pop up on filesharing services, when you can access pirated content through BitTorrent. I guess it just goes to show that in the era of duplication, the very local and immediate experience of theatre is not immune to the larger intellectual property issues of the day.

Consider that even on this board, we have conversations about shows that preview in San Francisco (LESTAT, A CHORUS LINE) and Chicago (THE PIRATE QUEEN) and have a fairly detailed sense of what's happening with them before they ever reach New York. The "collective intelligence" we assemble via this board is unbelievable.


Updated On: 11/15/06 at 10:39 PM

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 10:43pm

Then maybe it should be stated in the contract that the original creative team should always be listed in the program, that would end the problem right there.

[HOUFlip04]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 10:45pm

I was thinking the same thing. I'm guessing that will be happening soon.

[Marlothom]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 10:47pm

The system NOW in place let's the "well established" directors command such mentions in other productions; for example remember when Sweet Charity toured w/ a new director and Bobbie was still mentioned. It's certainly not the same for new ones, who just want to chance to work.

[HOUFlip04]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 10:56pm

"Hauptman said that in the future, she would like to create 'a mechanism by which if people really want to do the Urinetown they saw on Broadway, they can, by licensing the work from the creators and giving them credit.'"

Oh, guess I should have read the Playbill article...

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 11:13pm

This is one of those cases that is really gonna set the tone for theatre in the future. One one hand, I have to say, "Well DUH! Have you never seen a regional production of 'Wizard of Oz?'" But by the same token, I can see where the original team sits with the "Hey! That was my idea!" I know as a designer, unless there is something that is specifically recognized by the audience (Dorothy's outift, the red Dolly dress, a green suited Peter Pan) I will do everything I can to create it new, and even then I will re-invent the outfit or set piece so that it isn't a verbatim copy. But that's me.

[hippiedance]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 11:46pm

Hi all,

I SAW the Chicago production of Urinetown AND the Broadway production and I have to say, the Chicago production wasn't a close copy, it was an EXACT COPY. I looked to see if there was any mention of the Broadway production in the program and they didn't mention it anywhere. I did think it was very odd.

[Marlothom]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 11:53pm

Unfortunately, most of these "cases" end up settling out, so a decision is not likely. There was another situation last year with a small NY play, "Tam Lim" that never got decided.

[Zikes]

Posted: 11/15/06 at 11:59pm

I was at the Jeff's, and when Urinetown won for choreography, people sitting around me were flabbergasted. It was a carbon copy of the original choreography not original in any way, shape, or form.

On a (sort of) related note. I am a designer and I recently interviewed for a show that wanted me to present idea's and concepts. The director told me he loved my ideas, but I was not hired. Are there legal ramifications if I see my ideas on stage? I've already mailed myself my sketches as a sort of quick copy write, just in case.

Thanks,

Zikes.

[wackjack132]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 12:02am

WEll, I mean think about what you guys would be saying if you went to go see a community theater production of A Chorus Line and they had changed the Opening Combination and One? Or if they didn't have the top hats and bow ties?

Now granted that's not the same case, seeing as how that is pretty necessary to ACL, I still think it can be used as an example of this. I mean...when we did ACl our director had done the show on B'way and was giving us the exact, or as close as he could get a bunch of teenagers to do, blocking and choerography that he was given.

But hey, I say art is art. Why bring the law into it? Just credit who needs to be credited and your fine.

Which is where this production screwed up.

[Marlothom]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 12:03am

Generally speaking (THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE!) ideas cannot be copyrighted, but if your ideas are written in paper, there are more than just ideas.

The requirements for a copyright registration are not high and in case of infringement, you can collect statutory damages, so may want to pursue that option.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 12:03am

Keep the paper work for your ideas.

I had that happen once. They wanted sketches and such before they even hired me. After the interview, I wasn't hired, but they stole my ideas and I took their ass to court and won.

[sondhead]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 12:06am

Ya, it's not just program credit. It's MONEY. If people are going to use original Broadway designs and choreography, then the people who created those things deserve money for it just as much as the people who wrote the score and book.

And I'm sorry, there's no excuse. Community theatre is not exempt merely because it is community theatre. It is ridiculous that people try to copy other people's work and pass it off as their own and don't even bother to pay them for their work!! We have all seen numerous xerox copies of original productions in which NO credit was given in the program and that pretty much means the original people were oblivious to it. That's not fair, that's not right, and it's pretty pathetic considering theatre is an artist's playground. Are we really so uncreative as a society that hundreds of theatres across the country can't figure out some new way to do their productions?

I hope this case is a HUGE wake up call to regional spaces. It's embarassing that professionals in the theatre world would steal from other professionals.

And by the way, ideas CAN be copyrighted. Even if they couldn't be, any aspect of a Broadway production can easily be written down, which means it can DEFINITELY be copyrighted.

You KNOW there are about 5,000 theatres out there going "oh SH*T" right now hoping no one "important" saw their last season...

[Zikes]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 12:07am

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately the company that did this to me is one that I've worked with before, and this has put a really sour taste in my mouth about working with, or supporting them ever again.

Zikes.

[Marlothom]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 12:10am

Another element to throw in the mix is that the Producer generally owns any copyright of a production through a work-for-hire contract.

The problem with 'writing down' parts of a musical or play is that it has already been written down, by the playwright. That is one of the obstacles. Copyright exists in an original work of authorship that can be fixed in a tangible form. Many times, the playwright will say, ALL THOSE THINGS are MY CREATION. Some playwrights, Eugene O'Neill most notably, would write VERY DETAILED stage directions within the play manuscript to ensure a broad copyright.

Updated On: 11/16/06 at 12:10 AM

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 12:20am

at the same time though I do believe that SOME people here on this board, had they gone to see that production of Urinetown, and it had completely new direction, choreography, sets and costumes and it wasn't the Broadway style production they were expecting to see would be sitting here complaining.

[Theatreboy33]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 1:04am

I agree with the Urinetown director/choreographer on this one. I also found the Chicago production very suspicious in that it was so close to the original, I was told by some that it was a "sit-down tour" similar to Wicked's current open stint in Chicago. I can see the difficulties in copywrighting "direction." After all, should every crappy high school production of Les Miz using a Captain Crunch hat for Javert and a poor, hand-operated turntable be turned over to the law? Difficult to say where the line is and how it is crossed. But I would agree that if these were PROFESSIONAL productions out for the purpose of making a profit, then yes, the Urinetown creators are just in their cause.

[Theatreboy33]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 1:04am

I agree with the Urinetown director/choreographer on this one. I also found the Chicago production very suspicious in that it was so close to the original, I was told by some that it was a "sit-down tour" similar to Wicked's current open stint in Chicago. I can see the difficulties in copywrighting "direction." After all, should every crappy high school production of Les Miz using a Captain Crunch hat for Javert and a poor, hand-operated turntable be turned over to the law? Difficult to say where the line is and how it is crossed. But I would agree that if these were PROFESSIONAL productions out for the purpose of making a profit, then yes, the Urinetown creators are just in their cause.

[BroadwayBaby6]

Posted: 11/16/06 at 1:29am

We're going down a very slippery slope here. When you see a show, you expect the choreography to be pretty similar to the original show unless you're seeing it on Broadway, so you expect a re-thinking of the original.

If I go see Damn Yankees or Cabaret, I expect to see Bob Fosse's choreography or a version of it. I also expect much of the same shtick as in the original production. For any show, the original director and choreographer are two of the people who shaped the show. The director and choreographer should sue the composer and lyricist for their share of royalties and not the people who produce the show--- the royalties that these regional theatres paid should cover the the ideas that they "stole" from the original.