Effie White -- Does She Have To Be "Heavy?"- Page 2

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 1:08pm

Good point MTV man...my feeling about Beyonce is that she is glamorous and Deena is also a very good part. Sheryl Lee Ralph was phenomenal originally and also got a Tony nom. I am not sure why she was not offered the role, but maybe she was intimidated by the vocals, or they are indeed going for an unknown.

Kryspyt, the reason that Effie is not right for the lead of the Dreamettes is because she is too overpowering, and Curtis wants to take them to another place with a "new sound." If Effie is a large girl, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that that is a big (pun) reason for the change in lead singer, but it doesnt have to be that way. Deena is supposed to be an inferior singer (or different, I should say.) If you hear the full concert recording you see how Effie is overbearing and difficult right from the beginning. Another reason to put her in back and eventually cut her from the act.

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 1:36pm

While I'm not super familiar with this show, based on what you have described, I agree.

Actually, I feel this way in general...if weight is not pertinent to the show, it shouldn't be one of the main factors compared to talent. As a fat girl myself, I think if they find the talent and she happens to be on the bigger side, great, but that SHOULD be the least important factor.

Unfortunatly, casting directors often don't look at this both ways. There are often roles that large women could play, but that are never really considered for.

[Thetruth]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 1:41pm

That was a great post, Margo. Still, I'd like to point out that Jennifer Holiday did mention that in earlier versions of the show, the characters were constantly referring to her weight and calling her fat. She told Bennett it was too much for her to take and that they can only call her fat once. So, I do believe that the emphasis on Effie's demeanor kind of took the place of the weight issue, but I'm inclined to believe that Bennett was initially centered on Effie's weight.



I understand that the show still works with Effie not being "heavy." But I like my Effie's big. It may be because viewing the show on stage Effie stands out because she's the bigger of the three girls. It looks great when she's in the middle during "Move" But when Effie is pushed to the background, the symetry is thrown off and she looks out of place.

And in regard to the cultural issues in Dreamgirls, I do think having a bigger Effie adds another layer to the story that people can relate to today. I (and I think the public in general) want to see more plus-sized leading ladies. Also, the color issue is probably going to be present as well, because we have a more fair-skinned Deena and I'm speculating that whoever plays Effie will not be lighter than Beyonce...Whatever they end up doing, I think the show and the movie will work better if you have more there than just Effie's attitude and sound.

Posted: 6/15/05 at 1:52pm

Margo, I think weight is just the most obvious part of why Deena has to replace Effie. It's a shorthand way to understand what's going on but not the whole picture.

Effie and Deena (if you knew nothing of the show, those names would give you a hint) are like night and day: Effie has the voice, a big, powerful, voice, raised in gospel and R&B. Deena has a "Pretty voice" and is a Pretty girl. You could look at Dreamgirls as the ultimate MTV show: They push aside the real talent for the pretty face. Martha Wash (Who sang the role assigned to a beautiful model in C&C Music Company) was a real life Effie- A terriffic voice who could only make it as a novelty act or a faceless "diva".

The Dreamettes were a R&B trio who want to make records and sing the songs they love. The Dreams are entertainers: Records, movies, Vegas, Television. Whatever her other shortcomings (Fat, thin, tall, short, old, ulgy) Effie has just a voice and thinks that is enough.

I always liked the fact that while Effie sings "I am Changing" she doesn't really change.

[GhettoBway]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 1:52pm

Nell Carter was the first Effie.


We are used to a heavy-set woman playing that role and it should be that way because of the lack of roles there are for them and it adds to the story.

Truth i got something you want... Updated On: 6/15/05 at 01:52 PM

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 1:58pm

Huh? wha....?

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 2:12pm

Please dont misunderstand the question...noone is arguing that Effie needs to be skinny...my opinion is that it simply doesnt matter...If she can sing and act, sign her up!

BTW, Florence Ballard was thin!

[MTVMANN]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 2:26pm

Also, regardless of how she originally was supposed to be, I think that they are going for a plus-sized woman for the role in the movie because I remember reading about the auditions on a thread and her character analysis said something like "she's big in her voice and size."

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 2:58pm

Just a quick update on Julia McGirt. After she left DREAMGIRLS, she went back to her homebase in Washington, D.C. where she had been a noted club singer prior to the show. She married Chuck Nixon (her longtime boyfriend since their days at N.C. School of the Arts) and had a son, Nicholas.

She has spent most of the last two decades as one of D.C.'s most well-regarded performers, specializing in r&b, jazz, blues and gospel. She did the occasional musical as well, locally even returned to New York briefly to replace B.J. Crosby in SMOKEY JOE'S CAFE.

[morosco]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 3:03pm

Damn Margo! Who are you?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 3:23pm

Julia was a good friend of mine when in lived in DC (before I moved to New York in the early 90s) and we still keep in touch from time to time. Through her I met several former DREAMGIRLS cast members and I remember all of the backstage stories and gossip they used to talk about.

Trust me, there are A LOT more stories I could tell you about DREAMGIRLS, Bennett, most of the actors who played Effie, Lorell, Deena, Jimmy et al (including Miss Holliday) if it weren't for the fact that this is a public board. In fact, I may have said too much already, but given it all happened 20 years ago, I'm guessing that no one out there who reads any of this will be too offended.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 3:30pm

Margo...you should write a backstage musical based on Dreamgirls based on the Supremes!

Obviously there are alot of us who cant get enuf...

[dreamboy2004]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 3:42pm

Ok first of all Florence Ballard wasn't techincaly thin she was more a of a curvacios shape much like Beyonce actually. But as the Supremes progressed to more success and she began to drink more she gained weight. Mary Wilson said that after a while Florence and Diana would argue because Diana wanted wear one costume and Florence couldn't fit hers any more. Secondly Margo you've made your point of Effie needing not too be thin this may have been true but like someone mentioned before I have read it for myself where Jennifer Holliday said that the word fat was all over Dreamgirls and she made Bennet cut it. Now I want my Effie to be fat.Yes Effie was a bitch from the very begining but she was a BIG and that's how I like it. Plus a reason Curtis wanted Deena to take the lead was for her image as well as voice. Jennifer Holliday had such emotinal problemns with Effie because as she put it she was casted as the "ugly one" But anyway Margo I love the information you give. I'd love to know about the development of Deena. Is she realy based on Diana Ross?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 3:48pm

Well, let's just say the relationship between Deena and Curtis bears more than a passing resemblance to the real life relationship of Diana Ross and Berry Gordy -- though Bennett and the rest of the creative team always publicly denied it (for obvious legal reasons).

[morosco]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 4:40pm

"...I remember all of the backstage stories and gossip they used to talk about. "

Someday I'd love to hear these stories!

[Marquise]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 5:46pm

Deena Jones/Diana Ross
Curtis Taylor, Jr./Berry Gordy, Jr.

:: eyes narrow ::

"hmmm...."

[dreamboy2004]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 6:30pm

I guess you guys are right about the realationship of Curtis/ Deena bearing a resemblence to Diana/Berry. Curtis was obsesive of Deena which has been said quite often about Berry towards Diana. My question now is if Effie is supposed to be Florence and Deena, Diana then who is Mary Wilson? Because I see now simularties between Mary and Lorell except that Mary Wilson was dating Tom Jones while he was married much like Lorell was dating Jimmy. Plus is it true that relationships between Sheryl Lee Ralph and jennifer Holliday were often icy?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 6:43pm

The book of DREAMGIRLS is "inspired by" certain details of the Supreme story, but it's not a true roman a' clef -- the characters are not exact reflections of any of the real life people (which is why the producers and creative team were never sued). Lorrell is not Mary Wilson, but an invention created in workshop. Michelle Morris is not Cindy Birdsong. In real life, Diana and Berry never married as Curtis and Deena do. And Flo Ballard never had a comback after she was fired from the group -- she died poor and on welfare in the mid-70s.

Now, in the original workshop, Effie only appeared in Act One and was presumed to have had a Ballard-like downward spiral after "And I Am Telling You" but Holliday quit the show over what she saw as half of a starring role. Over the course of the next workshop, it was decided to give Effie a full-fledged comeback since that's what the audience was going to want anyway and Bennett always liked hopeful endings better than tragic ones.

Updated On: 6/16/05 at 06:43 PM

[broadwaystar2b]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 7:22pm

Jennifer Holliday in Atlanta a few years back wasn't particularly "fat" but she still tore the house down.
And I too rate seeing her as Effie as one of the most exhillerating theatrical performances I have ever experienced.

[rKrispyt]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 8:20pm

Alrighty, I gotta say everyone makes some valid points, so to add my two cents, I have come to this conclusion:

I myself, also PREFER a bigger Effie, because I think it adds that layer, and as someone mentioned earlier (my apologies that I am unable to recall the name to give credit here) that it shows a larger woman as a complete person - sexy, funny, difficult, etc. - it's deeper than most portrayals. I should also add, by 'bigger' Effie, I don't mean bigger like, 250+ bigger, I mean someone who is anywhere between looking like a real person (not supermodel/Hollywood thin) and being a larger gal.

At the same time, I am not (any longer thanks to this thread) against a non-'heavy' Effie. However...

...I just hope that they realize when deciding whether to cast this gal as Effie (say J-Hud) or that gal as Effie (say LaToya) that they know they're also choosing between two different interpretations of how they'll portray Effie, with the latter meaning they need to bring out those vices that Margo and others keep pointing out that justify why these things happen to Effie.

I still just think...I dunno, when you see the show and you keep wanting her to make it, to me it seems like more of a struggle to overcome the weight issue in order to make it in the 'industry' than to change your attitude, y'know? But perhaps that's just me.

What I'd hate is for them to do it wrong and have people leave that movie saying "but Effie COULD'VE been the lead singer for the Dreamettes" because she looks like the products that we see on cd covers today...does this make any sense?

It reminds me of going to see Violet at my alma mater this past winter - anyone familiar with the show knows there's a love triangle between the guy that's not right for her and she just kind of hooks up with because beggars can't be choosers, and the guy who really cares for her. That show is my absolute favorite and hearing people talking at intermission saying "I think she loves them both just in different ways" just broke my heart because it's missing the heart and soul of the piece, and the director missed that. I would also hate for people to miss the heart of Dreamgirls if they screw this up, y'know?

Also, and lastly (I've rambled on incoherently long enough), I think the other factor in people's preference for a 'heavy' Effie, is that the movie is kind of the preservation and representation of the stage version...which people associate with Jennifer Holiday...and it just feels more right to have that for your grandchildren to go rent in 25 years than something that was a new and possibly one-time-only take on it, y'know?

Alright, I'm done wasting your time, lol.

This is a great thread, I'm glad it's still goin'. Great discussions from intelligent peopple....nice change :)

Ps. Margo is my hero. Do you think if I PM Rob everyday telling him you need to be paid for all the knowledge you share with us all, eventually he'd cave? lol

Updated On: 6/15/05 at 08:20 PM

[Thetruth]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 8:54pm

Margo, If you could find a way to share some of those stories via email or pm, I'd also like to hear about it.


Adding on to the "heavy" discussion, I think most want a big Effie because America has an affinity for big black women who can sang their asses off.

[thibodeaux]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 10:40pm

I just want to talk about the actual song within DREAMGIRLS titled, "Heavy"...I read most posts and I didn't see anyone discuss it, but I could have glanced over it, so pardon any duplicate information/opinions...

I always felt like "Heavy" was about Effie. (DREAMGIRLS has the amazing ability of furthering plot, character development, relationships and inner monologues through beautiful and heart-wrenching lyrics).

"Heavy, heavy, you got so heavy, baby, yea...Heavy, heavy, you got so heavy on me. You used to be so light and free..."

Perhaps leading one to believe that Effie was thinner and then began gaining all of this weight (pregnancy) that others viewed as just fat.

Now, myself, I would prefer to see a slightly stocky Effie as I feel it fits the overall image of Effie, or at least the image I have in my mind. But, a lot of times, the image doesn't matter so long as she actress playing Effie digs down into the core of her and really lets the audience into all the inner struggle that she is going through; the voice and the emotion are what is key with Effie, I think, not so much whether or not she is heavy or thin. (Although it is a delightful topic of discussion, Margo; I am in no way implying that it is not a valid topic because it most definitely is--and once again I am thoroughly astounded by your vast knowledge).

Also, I feel that Effie in the movie version should definitely be played by an unknown, however the list of stars signed up for the cast are all names. Talented names, but still names. I hope they decide to really search for Effie and cast the best for the role and not best for the box office.

Keep this thread up, it's wonderful!

Updated On: 6/15/05 at 10:40 PM

[silent]

Posted: 6/15/05 at 11:55pm

I'm enjoying this topic as much as everyone else. Just to add to what someone else said about Martha Wash. Kelly Price is essentially another "Effie" as well. On the cover art for her single "Friend Of Mine," her pic doesn't even appear. She had the hardest time getting a deal because of her weight. Eventually she got a deal based on her hard work and talent but obviously she's never gotten exposure in the pop world (other than her collaboration with Whitney Houston).

I can see why DREAMGIRLS is such an important piece of art.

I don't know who will be cast as Effie but I can see Tarralyn Ramsey in this part. She's got the voice and she's got the look.

[Thetruth]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 12:42am

Kelly Price is so tragic. She sang her butt off on her first CD, but ever since then I've been underwhelmed. She seems to be solely focused on her weight. Though she sold more when she was bigger. She had a strong base of solid R&B fans who loved her regardless of her size (Her and Mo'nique were pulling in the same crowd!)I don't know if her surgery has caused her not to sing as well, but she doesn't sound nearly as strong as she used to and her hunger (pun) for music has diminished.


Since somebody brought up Nell as the "original" Effie I'm curious to hear how folks think she would've faired in the role had she not left to pursue tv?

[rKrispyt]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 12:47am

Silent: I think what's actually being discussed right now is "the look" and what Effie's is, if there IS/should be one, and how limited that would be.

Not reprimanding just...I assume "the look" you refer to is that of a larger woman, which was kinda what I was trying to point out in my long and uneccesary post awhile up - that so many people associate Jennifer with it and Effie as being larger that to have it made into a movie for posterity's sake with a new take on Effie with her being someone who's not so differentiatingly heavy from the rest of the Dreamettes might make people feel it's not a true representation of what Effie is/was/should be.

Feel free to share your opinion(s) on this - perhaps it won't even be a factor and I'm blowing that aspect out of proportion (fans/audience feeling a sense 'ownership' over the show and what the characters should be).

I'm loving this post - everyone's providing such intelligent opinions and discussing them - not the immature name-calling and low blows as on some of the other posts. Excellent. :)