Minorities and the Theatre: A Discussion - Page 3

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 11:11pm

that'll definitely be interesting to read, uncageg!

I graduated with my BA in sociology, for the most part focusing on urban issues, including race and ethnic issues. it's always interesting to me to hear people's opinions and theories about issues like this.

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 11:20pm

Well I hope you enjoy it!

In the meantime, check out my 2 part interview with Randy Weeks if you have not read it. I am kind of proud of it and have been getting positive feedback on it from people here in Denver and other states. I actually had someone walk up to me at a show last night to congratulate me on it. Made me feel good.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 2:09am

Exactly Yankee!

Obviously African-Americans are going to the theater. Tyler Perry's plays have been selling-out all over the country, and I just heard a radio ad saying that "The Marriage Counselor" extended or is coming back for a return engagement or something. So obviously something is clicking. My problem or question is along the lines of why do you have to go see something that "speaks to you." Do you know what I mean? I don't really think "Next to Normal" speaks to me, but I enjoyed it. Same for "Rock of Ages." You know? I'm not Jewish, but I enjoyed "Irena's Vow" and was into the story. So why not other people?

Also, I'm a Southern White Male. The shows that represent my part of the country and whatnot aren't exactly the kind of shows I want to see. I don't really want to sit through another show about Civil Rights and how white people were awful. I know it was an awful time, I'm not trying to discount that, but I don't understand why we need ANOTHER play about it. Or ANOTHER movie about it. it seems like we're just treading on the past.

Sorry if I stepped on any feet, but I understand the comments about how they can relate to their story being told and whatnot, but I don't get why it's so hard to go see something out of your comfort zone? I mean it's just the theatre, it's not like they're being asked to jump off a cliff. It's 2 1/2 hrs of your life. Sure, I can't relate to "Jersey Boys" in any possible way (I'm not from New Jersey, I'm not a pop singer, etc), but I still can enjoy it for what it is: theatre.

[hubee]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 5:38am

But I think with the expense of broadway ANd the perception that it's for white people with money (as a few mentioned before), people aren't willing to go that far to go out of their comfort zone.

I mean, people barely do that with TV and movies (if you looked at the Top 10 shows for blacks vs whites, they are totally different, or the popularity of Tyler Perry movies in the black community vs others) and those are much cheaper (if not free).

still, it's like me trying to convince my straight guy friends that musicals can be good since they all saw Phantom and Cats first and now hate musicals. I'm like, I hate those musicals too, you just have to see something different but most are not willing to go past that point (but those that I forced Rent or Spring Awakening or even Chorus Line or Company ended up really enjoying the shows).

But, since most people dont have me nagging and planning shows for them, I dont think people will spend the time to research shows, buy tickets and spend that money to see something they perceive they won't like (even if those perceptions are wrong or based on misconceptions).

But yah, I wish people were more open to seeing stories that they may not relate to, just for the sake of good storytelling, good theatre, acting etc. but I think most people don't care enough or are afraid of it. And I think the adverts and how Broadway is marketing itself doesn't always help break that barrier. (More in education programs and outreach from the theatre community might help).

[LotteTBS138]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 7:41am

I would like to say that I'm Hispanic (born in South American but moved to LA when I was 6) and gave a rat's ass about In the Heights (maybe because my expectations were too high). Now, a lot of the story is true about the latin community but hey, a lot of it also applies to just about any other community with the same premise being done in a different manner. I've been to many salons and EVERYONE gossips in them, no manner who runs them and works in there! The piraqua guy is the ice cream truck guy!

But I would agree with the points of attraction because when I was still in LA and had my season ticket to the CTG, there was a large African-American turn-out for the performance of The Color Purple and here, for "The Last Breeze of Summer" and "The American Buffalo" (rolls eyes) because of Cedric.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 12:13pm

I'm white, admittedly, but I just wanted to comment on Miss Saigon: I've never agreed that it's about an Asian woman killing herself for a white man. It's about an Asian woman killing herself so her son can have a better life (not in terms of race, but in terms of economic advantage etc). Even having escaped communist Vietnam, Kim was still only working as a bar girl.

Maybe you'll disagree, but that's how I've always felt. Not that the show doesn't have other racial issues, of course.

Edit: I should add that the person who posted that still makes an excellent point.

Updated On: 4/11/09 at 12:13 PM

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 12:30pm

Well, yes, that's the age-old debate going all the way back to Madame Butterfly, a debate that is very interestingly brought up and turned on its head in M. Butterfly. What if the races were reversed? What if Chris were the one to kill himself? Or what if it were a white prostitute instead of an Asian one? Would it still be beautiful and justified? There's no right answer really. It's just an Asian archetype that has existed for a long time, and I think it's very unsettling. But that's my opinion. I think it is justified in Miss Saigon, but I think Asian people would like to step away from that kind of image.

Edit: And, duh, I realize Miss Saigon and M. Butterfly are both inspired by Madame Butterfly, so that's why the issue relates directly. I do think it's an interesting debate topic though.

~Steven

Updated On: 4/11/09 at 12:30 PM

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 12:43pm

Oh, definitely, I think Miss Saigon handled it much better than Madama Butterfly. I love M. Butterfly, but I've always disagreed how Madama Butterfly is imperialistic and about the superiority of Europeans to Asian etc (though I can certainly see how it is offensive to Asians, and agree that the archetype is unsettling). A lot of operas feature white women killing themselves for men, and I find those beautiful, too. I think MB's beauty is in the music.

But, sorry, this is off-topic, so let me say: I would love to see an Asian-centered musical that doesn't deal with Asian vs. European/American culture.

Updated On: 4/11/09 at 12:43 PM

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 12:46pm

one of the interesting issues in M. Butterfly brought up in an essay I read was the idea that Asian women were seen as the absolute ideal for women, and Asian men were hardly considered men at all.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 12:52pm

Agreed, SporkGoddess. There's also an Asian inferiority complex which has nothing to do with theatre, but that's probably why I don't personally like seeing Asian people assimilating or succumbing to white people onstage. Give me an empowering Asian musical and I'm there! Until then, I'll have to settle with what I have and be grateful that there are any musicals with Asian people in them. And I am grateful for that. Also, this is part of our history, the inferiority and the assimilation, etc. It's just not as uplifting as African-American triumphs in society or Latino pride.

~Steven

[BWayJunkie]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 2:08pm

The way you go about seeing several shows a week is exactly how I do it too! Student rush, lottery, etc. I feel though that that kind of information is known to people who are already involved in the realm of Broadway. Any random person walking down the street in [insert neighborhood here] may not know this and should be alerted to this.

I also agree with WhizzerMarvin, as with others, that a lot of it I'm sure has to do with comfort. Everyone knows that you can see a movie in shorts or sweatpants and a t-shirt. Many non-theater goers still think that theater is equivalent to a black-tie affair. I remember seeing The Producers and feeling VERY out of place being one of two black faces that I saw in the theater (the other was my mom) but I absolutely LOVED the show. When I saw Wicked (my third Bway show) back in '07 I remember being really surprised when the White family sitting in back of me were in shorts, sandals and polos while I had on slacks, dress shoes and a button down shirt.

Back to the marketing aspect; the ability for ANYONE to be able to see a Broadway show (an idea that truly is regarded by some as an elite thing to do) for less than $40 needs to be more widely publicized. Also, I think there are several shows currently on Broadway that have a unique opportunity to do something new (new to me anyway) and that is radio. Not just having a commercial on the radio but having an entire song play just like any Beyonce or Britney Spears song would. Imagine hearing "Get Out and Stay Out" from 9 to 5 on the radio. That song isn't traditionally musical theater and was written by someone that sooo many people recognize so its bound to get played. Also, since it is a song about a woman regaining control of her life that was once ruled by a man, it has no color barrier because women of every race can face that situation. Or even a song like "It Won't Be Long Now" or "When You're Home" from In The Heights. Though those songs do speak to a particular culture all it takes is a foot in the door. Once they are aware of the possibility that they can see a show for $26.50 then they can explore the other shows on their own.

Again, I've gone on for an eternity but I suppose I just have a lot of thoughts on the matter because I have thought about this before and have been thinking of ways to try and change it. I've come up with a few, one that I might just use but we'll see... Anyway, lol... just my thoughts....
Updated On: 4/11/09 at 02:08 PM

[BwayLeadman]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 2:44pm

Why are latinos supporting shows like In the Heights and Celia, because it is advertised on channels such as Telemundo, Univision and spanish radio stations. I don't remember ever seeing a spanish commercial for Phantom or The Lion King.

[ARIELT]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 3:12pm

RentBoy86 go back to school and get an education. You are just outright dumb!!!!!! Plenty of blacks and mixed (African-American/Caucasians) and other minorities see all-white, Non-Traditionally cast or just generally mixed shows on Broadway. I am living proof!!!!! You are just dumb!!!! What an insult!!!! Get a clue!!!! It's unfortunate that shows are not cast Non-Traditionally more often and an even greater shame that directors, creators, and producers choose NOT to keep cast members who they cast NON-TRADITIONALLY for no reason at all, except for the naivete of people like you!!! The theatre is for everyone and open to be enjoyed by everyone. It's a place for what SHOULD BE, not what IS!!!...A place for great visionaries and imaginitive minds who have NON-TRADITIONAL visions...and it's seen by the same types of people...Get a grip!!!!

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 3:43pm

ARIELT, have you read the entire thread? I think Rentboy knows that. His post was referring to those who don't. And there are a LOT of African Americans who don't see anything but all black shows.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 4:14pm

See I think that has to do with exposure not color. Frankly I think some people don't WANT to understand, they just want to complain.

Most of these black plays aren't playing in NY. They're touring. It's advertised and it's just like any other show. Black people go to see Tyler Perry movies. They know his name. They like his stuff. They'll see it. I don't think if you advertised an All-Black King Lear starring Charles S Dutton black people would be knocking down the doors. So it's NOT just about race I think.

I feel in love with theatre because I was taken to it...by a white couple. I mean historically it's a white art form. That's just the truth of it. Same with opera. In the early 20's my grandmother wasn't going to Broadway, she was going to jazz clubs. It's a cultural thing. My parents went to see Purlie in 1970 because it was new and an opportunity. They haven't been back to Broadway since. Theatre to them was a novilty (sp). They go to support me. My dad always says "You've opened me up to things I didn't know existed". To this day my dad's favorite show he's seen me in is Pacific Overtures. That's not about black people. He was just exposed to it.


Now if you REALLY looked at the theatre in say A Raisin in the Sun you'd see more than just a line of black people. There were children there because of Puffy's name (not race), there as another group who came for Sanaa (the movie people) there were the theatre people who knew Audra and Phylicia. Then there were some of the older black people who grew up reading the play in a VERY important time. I think it's the same if you look out at the "Next to Normal" or any other show. Instead of seeing a sea of 1 big generalization, it's best to look at things in a different light.

Ohh and Yankee's comment about being the only white person in the Tyler Perry piece wasn't about the blackness of the audience, I think it was about the absence of the "other-ness". Meaning: You may not have seen to many dark faces in Next to Normal, but I didn't see too many light faces in Marriage Counselor.



This is far too long...
Updated On: 4/11/09 at 04:14 PM

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 4:35pm

Jazzy, I don't want to try and put words in your mouth, but do you think you'd say there's also a lot of class issues involved?

I personally do, which is why I was asking. I think issues like education and cutting of arts programs affect people of lower socio-economic status, many of who happen to be minorities. so, there isn't as much exposure to different forms of theater, as you pointed out in your post.

this made me think of an article I read in the NY Times about the spring musicals in New Jersey high schools. one of the schools they profiled was Hoboken High School. despite Hoboken's reputation as a yuppie haven, it's actually one of the 31 poorest school districts in New Jersey. the student body is also largely Hispanic and African American, so I think it relates to our discussion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/nyregion/new-jersey/05paper.html


I was also wondering, given bwayleadman's comment about advertising on Telemundo, how much language barriers would be affecting who is and isn't going to the theater. I know people talk about a lot of international tourists at shows, but I was wondering more about non-English or limited English speakers who are living in the States.

[LotteTBS138]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 6:04pm

>>I personally do, which is why I was asking. I think issues like education and cutting of arts programs affect people of lower socio-economic status, many of who happen to be minorities. so, there isn't as much exposure to different forms of theater, as you pointed out in your post.<<

And I think THAT is the real key point. I volunteered at a theatre in East LA which is predominantly Hispanic. They offered $10 shows and would even offer comps if people honestly couldn't afford to come and people still don't! The shows were also done in English or Spanish (not Spanglish like WSS now). People might feel like they might not be worthy to go or it simply is not their cup of tea.

I just saw "Knives and other sharp Objects" at the Public Lab and not too many Hispanics in there.

Hell, I remember going to see Doctor Atomic at the met and people were looking at me with a "what are you doing here?" look. Maybe because I was in jeans but I felt like telling them I graduated with a music performance degree and am getting my Masters in the Arts!

But the advertising definitely plays a role like it has been mentioned. I see, or consider seeing something, if I even know it exists.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 6:09pm

I totally agree. In a perfect world music programs and art programs wouldn't be getting cut in schools to make way for football teams. At my high school we had an award winning theater program (best in the south east for two years running), but we didn't get an ounce of praise. Instead our sports team - which pretty much all sucked - were praised and thrown money and even earned a new locker room while we were left with basically nothing.

I'm surprised most schools in the new york metro area don't take their kids to a Broadway show. Surely they could get some sort of discount and expose them to some theater, but maybe they do? I'm not pretending to be an expert on any of this.

It's all based on a plethora of different ideas and reasons, but I just thought the topic was interesting. I'm really fascinated by the way race is handled in society. For me, I don't think it's a big deal. I hate when people say stuff like "I don't see any color" because to me that's totally discounting someone's originality and heritage. I mean, why not embrace race?

And ARIELT, say what? Did you read anything on this thread?

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/11/09 at 11:05pm

Well it might be a class issue in urban environments but I don't buy it in the suburbs. I grew up in a typical middle class suburban school system where it was VERY diverse. We had immigrants from Turkey and Pakistan, blacks, whites. It was nice. However I think theatre and the arts in general have become less and less important to society. Even people with a rich theatrical history in their culture are going less.

I remember going to the theatre 3 times in my entire educational history. I use the word theatre loosely. We saw non equity productions of Carousel and Annie Get Your Gun at the Universtiy (I grew up in a college town). And I saw Starlight Express...on Ice. You heard me.

I know the NYC schools do sometimes bring students but in this market, we're lucky we've got schools. If they didn't go to theatre before, they sure as hell aren't going now.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 2:15am

True. But I grew-up in a typical suburb. I went to the theatre a good bit, and I saw school plays, etc. So it's not like any of us were exempt from the theater. I mean, everyone in the school had to go see the "One Act" that the high school was putting on that year. So everyone was at least exposed to some sort of theater. But that's just us. I don't know how it is in other schools.

[PRFRMR20]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 7:18am

I think this is a great thread with some very interesting and insightful posts from people with very different backgrounds and point-of-views! And for the most part without bickering!! :)

However, I do have to say that I disagree with Phyllis Rogers Stone's posts.

First, "reverse discrimination" or as givesmevoice correctly pointed out, "discrimination against a normally dominant group" is not a fake concept. Especially not one created by white people. How many rap/hip hop songs include whitey or cracker (though based on the negative history of white slave owners) or talk down about the dominant members of society? How many white people are afraid/nervous to go to the more unsafe areas of NYC because of the crime rate against them and the discrimination against them?

Also, you talked about "celebrating whiteness"... as a Jewish White Male can I only celebrate my Judaism because that is the minority? Can I not celebrate that I am White and the heritage of my Polish/Russian ("white skinned") heritage? Can I not celebrate that I am Male?

You said "I defy anyone to point me to any sort of group celebrating the whiteness of its members that doesn't exist to exert some sort of supremacy over other ethnic groups."

What about white people from Eastern Europe?

Lastly, are you Christian? If you are, are you not allowed to celebrate your Christianity because it "has been celebrated since the year one?" If your not... trust me, as a Jew, I see a lot of celebration from Christianity - look at how the entire month of December has become "Christmas Month" in America.

I think for there to be true equality amongst all (race, religion, sexual orientation) we must not only celebrate the minorities, but celebrate ALL! If not, you are discriminating as much as anyone else.

[canmark]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 11:22am

Very interesting thread. As an Asian-Canadian male, who has been going to the theatre for 20+ years, I am still dismayed when I go to the Broadway-type theatres in Toronto and can count the Asians on my fingers. It is increasing, but slowly. And slowly compared to other areas such as sports. I would say that you see more non-white people at baseball, basketball and hockey than you do at Big Theatre, despite the high ticket prices for all of those events (although, obviously, stadiums and arenas hold more people, so perhaps on an actual percentage it might be the same). Still, it's much easier to find non-white Raptors/Leafs/Jays fans than it is to find non-white fans of the theatre. I also so more non-white faces at the local film festivals, which I also attend.

I think it's partly upbringing. I think a lot of the traditional theatre audience has been attending the theatre for years, and it's a 'normal' form of entertainment. These are the middle aged subscribers, and families who bring their kids--who are brought up attending the theatre (and maybe other Arts like the symphony, opera, musuems, galleries, etc.). For a lot of other people it's a special-event thing: Phantom of the Opera, Mamma Mia, or maybe some show that relates to their ethnic group (Miss Saigon, Da Kink in My Hair).

I think marketing is important, and particularly outreach to other communities. In a city like Toronto, with a 50% immigrant population, theatre companies need to educate and reach out to these new audiences, many of whom are affluent (the Chinese and South Asian populations, for example) or are a part of the fabric of the city (West Indian and gay populations, for example), and this means not just shows, but making those shows part of the conversations.

I really would like to see more free public performances (Mirvish recently had 4 of its shows--We Will Rock You, Sound of Music, Spring Awakening (tour) and Dirty Dancing--perform in a downtown mall), discounts, groups and student groups, just to give people a taste of what live theatre is all about. While, of course, you want to attract your traditional audiences (middle class and affluent whites, Jews and gays), young people and ethnics are your future market.

I'm over 40 and I still felt like I was below average in age... at Spring Awakening. That's not right! And why were there so few "people of color," despite a decent turnout of black people at the previous touring musical, The Color Purple.

It's kind of dismaying at times, because I'd certainly like to see more 'people like me' in the audience (wouldn't mind seeing some Asian actors on stage, either), and it would seem that the marketing methods of the major theatre companies are of critical importance. That, and bringing student groups (urban schools are, of course, very multi-ethnic) so that young people can get a taste of the impact of live theatre.

Updated On: 4/12/09 at 11:22 AM

[PRFRMR20]

Posted: 4/14/09 at 4:55pm

bumping... because I took a bunch of time to write out my post and because of Easter it got pushed down :)

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/14/09 at 5:09pm

No, I'm not Christian. I don't believe in a genie in the sky who is also his son and also a ghost but they are all the same and one and not three, even though they are called the TRInity.

And I still stand by what I said. Unfortunately, I guess I have to dumb it down to avoid unfortunate answers like this -

What about white people from Eastern Europe?

Is there a white people from Eastern Europe day or parade that I missed?

Seriously, in what way do you want to celebrate your whiteness? Instead of looking for reasons to blame the black people for rap songs that discriminate against you or neighborhoods you can't visit, why don't you explain to me what a celebration of your whiteness would be, and an actual GROUP (as in ORGANIZATION) that exists to celebrate "whiteness" that isn't about discrimination against other races.

And don't start qualifying it by nationality. It's not the same, and you know it.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/14/09 at 5:11pm

Sorry if I stepped on any feet, but I understand the comments about how they can relate to their story being told and whatnot, but I don't get why it's so hard to go see something out of your comfort zone

I think the point you are missing, being a straight southern white male, is that for minorities almost every bit of entertainment is out their comfort zone, if we are to understand that comfort zone means seeing people like you represented.
Updated On: 4/14/09 at 05:11 PM