Finished Deathly Hallows? SPOILERS WILL PROBABLY ABOUND.- Page 14

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 10:01am

I'm rereading, and I can't stop thinking about what we find out about Dumbledore or how to evaluate his choices. I'm intrigued that he used people as, essentially, pawns in the plan to bring down Voldemort. It certainly feels that Snape was ill-used, or at least was convinced of that fact up until he died. He nurtured Harry knowing (or at the very least, strongly suspecting) that his death was the only way to ensure Voldemort's downfall. I'd be rather interested to know how long Dumbledore knew that Harry was a Horcrux (or the general idea, if not specifics). From the beginning? Chamber of Secrets? Horcruxes aren't mentioned until the sixth book, but Dumbledore understood what Riddle's diary as even then, so surely he guessed, particularly when Harry possessed abilities that weren't his. It seems likely enough that, from day one, all of Dumbledore's interactions with Harry were in that knowledge. I could almost see Dumbledore's relationship with Harry as showing a rather masochistic streak -- he punishes himself for the crimes he must commit in the name of the greater plan by letting himself get close enough to Harry to feel pain on his behalf. Of course, I think that's reading in too much and it was a "mistake;" doesn't he say something to Harry along the lines of, "I charge anyone who has watched you as I have not to care about you"?

Rambling aside, the point is, I find myself sort of unable to move past that feeling of betrayal that is part of what makes "The Forest Again" such a moving chapter. I think that we're meant to, but even in the light of the revelations in the following chapter, Dumbledore still doesn't get off the hook. Yes, he was pretty sure that Harry wouldn't actually die, so his callous words to Snape on the subject of Harry's death probably aren't reflective of his actual thoughts. Still, though, the reason that Harry survives is a mistake on Voldemort's part that didn't even happen until the fourth book, and I can't shake the feeling that Dumbledore's logic regarding Harry's death would still stand if that loophole hadn't been created. And anyway, why DID he have to present the plan so callously to Snape and, by extension, Harry? It seems unnecessarily cruel. Was there some value in Harry thinking that he'd been betrayed? Harry had to believe that he was walking to his death, but it seems that he could have believed it knowing that he had Dumbledore's sympathy and regrets. Perhaps it was just a narrative choice in order to allow for a more dramatic reversal with what we find out in "King's Cross," but I'd be so fascinated to know if there's logic behind it.

ETA: Boo, limbo. RE: Neville, it specifically says that Harry casts a Shield Charm between Neville and Voldemort from under the invisibility cloak, and then everything goes crazy. Updated On: 7/30/07 at 10:01 AM

[GuitarGirl]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 10:43am

I'm not sure when Dumbledore found out that Harry was a Horcrux, but I'm guessing it was around the time of Goblet of Fire, when Harry started having visions of what Voldemort was doing. The connection between them was stronger in that book, and Dumbledore had to realize something was going on with Harry. Of course, Dumbledore probably suspected it a lot earlier.

[uncageg]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 11:51am

Darn it! I set the recorder for 7-8 mountain time and it came on at 6! I missed the interview.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 11:53am

Looking back at it over a week later, I am happier and happier with the final book. I also liked how we found out about Lupin and Tonks, and I love JK Rowlings reason for killing them. These books really show what a war could be like, and she didn't play it down.

And yeah, Harry cast the Shield Charm between Voldemort and everyone else. It was great

[GuitarGirl]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 11:53am

Here's the Dateline interview, transcripted:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20001720/

Here's a transcript of a web chat JKR did recently, courtesy of The Leaky Cauldron:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/7/30/j-k-rowling-web-chat-transcript


EDIT: The second link is awesome, and contains many answers to unanswered questions! I'm still reading it, but so far I'm very satisfied...

Updated On: 7/30/07 at 11:53 AM

[Ariella]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 1:05pm

I think some of the greatest poignancy in the "Forest Again" chapter comes from Harry's conviction that Dumbledore has indeed sacrificed him. I agree with you, Siren, that Dumbledore would have concocted the same plan had he not thought Harry had a chance for survival. In his youth, Dumbledore was captivated by the idea of "For the Greater Good," and although he renounced Grindelwald, I think that theme comes back again here. He would send Harry to his death (no loopholes) if he thought that was the only way to permanently vanquish Voldemort. In terms of statistics, it makes sense in a very callous way, and I assume Dumbledore didn't realize how close he would get to Harry. To me, Dumbledore's realization that the Horcrux would be destroyed and Harry would live seems like a lucky reprieve. I wonder if the bond that developed between Harry and Dumbledore was inadvertent - did Dumbledore in fact intend to love Harry at all? I'd like to think it was an attraction that formed for the right reasons, rather than Dumbledore having a masochistic desire to punish himself for eventually sending Harry to his death. The light Rowling shed on Dumbledore's past and motivations was incredibly illuminating, but certainly not reassuring. In retrospect, Dumbledore's plan is all the more alarming for the places where it went wrong - he didn't intend for Snape to die the way he did. The entire thing was incredibly precarious, illustrating just how easily Harry could have died (permanently).

I'm not sure why Harry had to walk into the forest feeling completely betrayed. Perhaps Dumbledore was trying to make his plan as "safe" (although the premise of the entire thing was a lucky guess) as possible. If he had discussed the incontrovertible need for Harry's death earlier, perhaps some of his reassurances might have accidentally given Harry a hope for survival... in which case the plan would have failed and the protection from Harry dying to save the others wouldn't have been activated. I suppose Harry's death had to be the real thing in every possible respect, including the betrayal that gave him a sense of complete isolation. In terms of Dumbledore revealing the plan to Snape, again perhaps Dumbledore was merely protecting his plan, trying to leave no room for error. From a different perspective, perhaps Rowling was using this moment as a characterization for Snape - Snape's horrified reaction to Dumbledore's disposal of Harry reveals the significance Harry has to Snape as the next closest thing to Lily Evans.

[GuitarGirl]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 1:43pm

I believe that Harry having to walk into the forest feeling betrayed and with no hope was because if Harry knew he would survive, it would've have been a sacrifice and therefore he would've died. I believe it had to do with his mother's blood, again. She sacrificed herself for him, keeping him alive. Harry sacrificed himself for everyone, which is possible what kept him alive.

Dumbledore did say that Harry had a choice whether or not to go back.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 2:20pm

It's all so interesting! To think that Dumbledore was already my favorite character, and what we knew about him before was only the tip of the iceberg.

I agree, Ariella, about Dumbledore's logic being that vanquishing Voldemort was the greater good, and from that perspective, Harry was (as horrible as it is to say) expendable. As pleased as I am with the book overall, I do wish that Rowling had written something in "King's Cross" to address this, but maybe we're either supposed to accept Harry knows and lets it go unsaid or the fact that Dumbledore expected Harry to live is intended to absolve him (which it doesn't). I wish it were addressed because of the implications for Harry and Dumbledore's relationship, although in general I don't think he could be blamed for making that call. I also agree that we see how precarious and flawed Dumbledore's plans have been, and all in all the odds of everything falling into place to ensure Voldemort's downfall must have been extremely small.

I believe that Harry having to walk into the forest feeling betrayed and with no hope was because if Harry knew he would survive, it would've have been a sacrifice and therefore he would've died.

Oh, I agree that he had to go in knowing that it was hopeless for his sacrifice to protect everyone else. I just didn't get the necessity of the betrayal aspect. Surely he'd have felt betrayed either way, but the way Dumbledore was so matter-of-fact about it (showing no emotion at all, actually) probably hurt him quite as much as the thing itself. The idea that that scene was intended as characterization for Snape reminded me that Dumbledore probably hadn't planned for Harry to find out that way, through Snape's dying memories. I suppose he expected that Snape would survive to relay the message himself. And that, actually, makes it even more brutal, because it opens up the possibility that Dumbledore was honest with Snape in a way that was truly representative of his perspective but would never have said those same things to Harry face-to-face. But it's Dumbledore, so maybe he was speaking to Snape knowing that Snape cared nothing for Harry and so felt it unnecessary to express sympathy for Harry's plight, especially since he knew that Harry could survive. In that case, it would just be an unhappy accident that Harry went to his death thinking that Dumbledore cared nothing for his life.

ETA: A friend of mine pointed out, quite astutely, that it makes perfect sense that Harry needed to feel completely betrayed by Dumbledore before the forest scene. Knowing what he does then, Harry has every reason there could possibly be to just walk away (except the one that makes him stay). Completely severing those loyalty ties to Dumbledore makes the choice entirely Harry's. No one is telling him to do it, and he doesn't owe anyone anything. He knows he's been manipulated and badly used, but he goes to his death anyway because it's the choice he makes to protect the people he loves. I hadn't thought of that, but I love it. The isolation aspect that Ariella mentions could play in here, too. Updated On: 7/30/07 at 02:20 PM

[GuitarGirl]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 3:01pm

I also loved the fact that it was completely Harry's choice, because it shows that he is willing to die for the sake of others.

I'm not sure how I feel about Dumbledore yet. He hasn't redeemed himself, but he couldn't have told Harry anyway if there was to be any chance of Harry's survival. Killing Harry was the only way to kill Voldemort, and I'm sure that it must've been difficult to play with a human life like that, for Dumbledore, especially since before Harry became The Boy Who Lived there was no human sacrifice necessary to kill Voldemort. It just happened by mistake.

Now I know what Dumbledore meant in Order of the Phoenix when he said that caring about Harry was his big mistake. He wasn't supposed to love Harry when he knew Harry would have to die, and Dumbledore himself was leading Harry to that death. But Dumbledore ended up loving Harry anyway, and also died in the process of making sure the plan went well (another question-did Dumbledore originally intend to die, before he was cursed?). Dumbledore, like Snape, is a very interesting character, and I haven't got him quite figured out yet.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 4:12pm

Oh and can i say that the "will it hurt" line was perfect also because it made you realize that while Harry was brave and doing all this great stuff, he was still a kid.

[istillbelieve24601]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 4:27pm

I'm really surprised that JKR didn't originally intend to kill off Lupin. From the day I read the fifth book, I was sure Lupin was next. It wouldn't have been right if one of the Marauders survived. I was very upset at Tonk's death though; I didn't really see that one coming.


But they're deaaaaaaaaaaad.

*sniffle* You'd think that after a week I'd be used to the idea. It still sucks.

My sentiments exactly.

As for Snape... I still can't like him. I don't think I'll ever be able to really like him. He did, however, remind me of Eponine in Les Miserables the novel- sacraficing everything for an unrequited love, switching sides at great personal risk for the affections of someone else who had already found true love in someone else.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 5:23pm

Just out of curiosity, would anyone be interested in reviving our BWW Harry Potter book club from last year to discuss Deathly Hallows? I know that sort of fell by the wayside, but I can't help but feel that there's so much to be discussed with the completion of the series.

[GuitarGirl]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 5:30pm

I wasn't here for the BWW book club, but I'd love to have one here discussing Deathly Hallows, so I'd be all for it!

[Ariella]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 7:48pm

HP bookclub? Definitely - there's so much to discuss now that the series has finally concluded.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 10:42pm

I'd love to try it once again.

[GuitarGirl]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 10:46pm

Deathly Hallows would be awesome to do a book club with!

[Kitzarina]

Posted: 7/30/07 at 11:16pm

Oooh, I'm in!

[soapguy17]

Posted: 7/31/07 at 8:10pm

I'm a late comer, but I finally finished. The "NOT MY DAUGHTER, BITCH" scene of Mrs Weasley. Owns my soul. ♥ That was quite possibly my favorite moment in any of the books.

I have one question, what exactly up with the portrait business, I've never quite understood the magical logic behind them, are those dead alive in the portraits? Or are they simple magical caricatures, imitating the people they're supposed to be? If so, Dumbledore's portrait crying seems a little weird.

I know this is going to seem a little odd, but did anyone get the idea that there were quite a few hints that Dumbledore might've been gay, or that he might have been rumored in the wizarding world to be? Rita's speaking of Dumby's "unnatural" interest in Potter raised an eyebrow.

Updated On: 7/31/07 at 08:10 PM

[GuitarGirl]

Posted: 7/31/07 at 8:43pm

Well, in the wizarding world all pictures move. I guess with the headmasters the photos take on the saying "a picture steals a part of the soul".

[Ariella]

Posted: 7/31/07 at 9:13pm

Hm, I thought Rita Skeeter was alluding to general pedophilia, hinting that Dumbledore was too "close" to Harry.

I think GG's right about the pictures. Ghosts are described as "imprints" of the soul, and the portraits are similar. They can think for themselves in the sense that they retain some essence of the person they depict.

[RENTingFAME]

Posted: 7/31/07 at 10:16pm

But paintings must be different from photographs, because you can't talk to people from photos...

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 7/31/07 at 10:29pm

NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU BITCH!

Is my favorite line in the entire series.

[GuitarGirl]

Posted: 7/31/07 at 10:45pm

I have a feeling the paintings capture the essence of the Headmaster while they were in the room. The paintings just magically appear when the Headmaster dies, with no artist, so my guess is that as soon as someone takes office their essence is capture within, say, the walls of the room while they are there, and transferred to a life-like painting when they die.

EDIT: This is totally random, but I know now why Petunia says that "that dreadful boy" told Lily about Dementors. It was Snape, and that memory is shown in DH!

Updated On: 8/1/07 at 10:45 PM

[BSoBW2]

Posted: 8/4/07 at 2:04am

Just finished reading it!

BgFatBlonde - that line and the part where Ron punches Draco are going to get huge applauses in the movie theatre - should those scenes make it in.

[DG]

Posted: 8/4/07 at 2:09am

"I thought Rita Skeeter was alluding to general pedophilia, hinting that Dumbledore was too "close" to Harry."

I cannot even begin to imagine that this would have crossed Jo's mind - much less that she would actually write it.