Is it wrong of me to be excited about the fact that the circus is at MSG?- Page 2

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 6:11pm

"We just don't know."

So if you "just don't know", how can you assume that these creatures are not being abused?

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 6:12pm

Okay, if Wiston doesn't go, and that causes the circus to stop using live animals, then I'm all for Winston not going.



But, do you really think that is going to happen? I didn't say it was right, but I'm just being blunt.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 6:17pm

Who cares if he goes to the circus or not?

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 6:38pm

At this point, I'm losing interest...

[winston89]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 6:51pm

Adam, The point that you clearly missed was that Animals are known for feeling things differently then humans do. So something that might look painful and brutal to us, might not be so for them.

Jane, While it is true that Kenneth Feld the owner of Ringling Bros And Barnum And Baily Circus said that they had at one point used bullhooks for their elephant training, that was all he said. He never said that it was considered torture or that it was something that was intentionally painful to the elephants or anything of that nature. PETA and other similar groups, took that information and ran with it. Saying that the bullhooks were used for torture when no one with any credibility on the subject came out and said anything either way on the topic.

Of course I am going to go when my cousins come into town. Hell, I am even looking forward to it. Would have gone solo if they didn't happen to be here? Yes, most likely. But, from a protest standpoint not only would I have ignored PETA's protests anyways, but it is hard for them to be successful protests when they all take place outside the arena where people are walking in who already have tickets.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 7:07pm

Have fun!

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 7:07pm

The ignorance; no, the down right stupidity, is staggering.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 7:15pm

I have to chalk it up to his age. Otherwise I'd really be shocked.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 7:22pm

For some reason, I'm prompted to post this anecdote re making animals do tricks.

Many of you may have heard of Alex, the african grey parrot who was trained and studied and found to be able to think, make choices, be able to pick out colors,etc. There are several books written about him.

Anyway, in one of the many videos showing him in action, there is one where he clearly doesn't want to cooperate. After each task the trainer asked him to perform, Alex asked her " Can I go back?" Each time she said no, you can't go back. So then Alex said "Can I have water?" LOL, he asked for the water to avoid the task!

such a smart bird!

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 7:50pm

No it is not.

Some people are more worried abou animals than they are with people.The Circus is losing popularity. Not long ago, the Circus stayed for about 5 or 6 weeks. Now it is there for less than 2 weeks.

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 9:07pm

I don't support PETA because they don't believe humans should have pets and that includes service animals for folks with disabilities. That said, there aren't any reports out there that say that animals are treated WELL by circuses or that it's an enjoyable life for the animals except the reports that come FROM the circuses. They have no access to anything resembling their natural habitat.

Circuses can be fun for children and I enjoyed the one I attended when I was a child, but I won't take my kids.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 9:19pm

"The ignorance; no, the down right stupidity, is staggering."

Yes.

It is.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 10:28pm

"Some people are more worried abou animals than they are with people."

That's a false equivalency and absolutely not germane to this discussion.

It is true that the big circus with miserable animals is a dying industry and all of the advances in circus arts are happening elsewhere. So, I guess if you feel you must see it, you better do it while you can because it's not going to be around forever.

Ringling spokespeople keep responding with non-responses to the charges that it is not fun or natural for elephants to balance on one foot for your entertainment and that they only do so because they have faced a lifetime of abuse to get them compliant. And if you want to convince yourself that electric cattle prods and bull hooks do not "feel" like torture to animals and that "we will never know" because they can't tell us, well, that's your prerogative but I think you know the truth. Elephants don't do these unnatural and dangerous behaviors because some nice lady like Victoria Stilwell is rewarding them with a peanut for every desired behavior.

You kind of brought this on yourself by framing your question with "is it wrong of me ...?". Just remember, you can try to put out of your mind what you know and think of it as all in good fun. Or you could seek out circus entertainment that has nothing to do with "taming" exotic animals.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 10:36pm

^ AMEN

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 10:49pm

Well said, Namo.

[winston89]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:04pm

Yet Namo, When I asked is it wrong. I was asking is it wrong for me, a 20 year old, to be looking forward to something that normally a child looks forward to. Not should I support a form of entertainment that abuses animals.

For the record, I do know that the animals aren't treated well and there is no good way to haul and elephant on a cross country train ride. However, I am not stupid in realizing that of course Feld Entertainment is going to say positive things about their business and support it to the hilt. But, at least to me, PETA has no credibility whatsoever. This is due to the fact that pull such crazy stunts and go to far over the top to prove their point. Hell there was even a situation where the Ringling Bros circus was playing in Cleveland and a couple of PETA protesters dressed up like a dying elephant in front of the local elementary school to scare off the kids from going.

If they were an organization that actually spent time really doing good full fledged research and thought things through before publishing them, then I might think differently about what they have to say. In the meantime they have these almost propaganda type sites, not only showing their anger and disgust over Ringling Bros. But of fast food chains and the like.

The point that I am trying to make is that I have major issues with how PETA presents its information and I am sure that Feld isn't being totally honest here. So, until I am presented with more better researched facts I am going to just leave it at me realizing that the animals are not treated as well as they could be and I am not going to let that interfere with my enjoyment of the show.

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:18pm

I frankly don't understand how this became about PETA. Your (anyone's) feeling about PETA (a terrorist organization, imo) is entirely beside the point.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:19pm

It's not about PETA. It's about choosing whether or not you want to be a part of the chain that leads from the audience's wallets to the animals' abuse. Clearly, great numbers of people are choosing not to do it, which is why the engagements are so much shorter now in each city than they used to be. But you are free, as a consumer, to decide what you want to explicitly support by spending your money on it or not. It's really that simple.

Of course, I knew what you you meant on the surface in the framing of your question (which TheatreDiva pointed out is silly on the face of it, is it WRONG to be excited by something because you've reached the grand old age of 20?). I was responding to what was just under the surface, whether you put it there consciously or not.

[BwayTday]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:29pm

Go have fun. Is it right what they do to the animals? No. Is Winston attending or not attending the circus going to change anything or stop anything? No. So go to re-live a cherished childhood activity. I see nothing wrong with being excited just because your twenty. It has meaning to you.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:32pm

It's not about one person "not changing" anything. It's about what does one person support with their money. When enough "one persons" choose not to spend their money on this product, it changes.

[BwayTday]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:47pm

That's a good point, Namo.

[winston89]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:53pm

Namo, I understand where you're coming from but with regards to animal rights, I think that there are just too many people out there who like me, have some sort of family connection with the show. Either they take the kids every year or something of that nature. Many of whom just think its cool to see an elephant in person rather then pay much attention to what happens when they go behind the curtain.

For me, I don't think that there will be a large amount of one persons to change how things are done at the circus. I hope I am wrong. But, I think that when it comes to me and how I feel about spending my money on the ticket, the way I view it is this. That because it feels like to me that there has to be more then what is being told. So, until that "more" comes out. I see nothing wrong with giving Ringling Bros my money. And, at least they aren't treating the animals like they are setting them up for the slaughterhouse.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:54pm

"is Winston attending or not attending the circus going to change anything or stop anything? No. So go"

that's like saying is one person's vote going to change anything? No, so might as well not vote. Apparently enough other people decided not to go to the circus and it did change something.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:54pm

And we see it changing rapidly in the recent past as a result of people choosing other entertainment options.

Plus, Chuck Wagner isn't the ringmaster on this tour.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 3/21/10 at 11:56pm

"Plus, Chuck Wagner isn't the ringmaster on this tour."

Oh, you never mentioned that.