Is it wrong of me to be excited about the fact that the circus is at MSG?- Page 3

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 12:08am

Jane, I don't want to get into an argument so perhaps I would be better off not to say this, but I knew Alex (he was extraordinary) and the woman who trained him -- please don't insinuate that the work they did while Alex was alive is on par with "making animals do [pointless] tricks." It's hugely derogatory to the field of science. Certainly he would have had days where he didn't feel like doing work -- don't we all? But I think it's too much conjecture to assume, if I am reading correctly, that he never wanted to do these things. Of course an animal that bright is going to be stubborn at times, but the clip you described is not representative of his experience or their relationship as a whole.

Updated On: 3/22/10 at 12:08 AM

[BwayTday]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 12:21am

Jane, I see your point but did the circus really die down exclusively because of what they do to the animals?

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 12:23am

I think the growing awareness of that and the guilt it instills has been a huge part of its demise as a cultural institution -- but I don't think it's wholly responsible. Think about going to the circus in comparison to other, more contemporary forms of entertainment. I feel like a pretty big percentage of kids would prefer like, playing on the Wii to going to see a circus.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 12:23am

Sorry, double post.

Updated On: 3/22/10 at 12:23 AM

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 12:23am

I think video games had a lot to do with it.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 12:45am

On the other hand, Cirque du Soleil grows and grows and grows like maple leafs in Montreal.

[winston89]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 8:12am

But, I think it's a different thing with Cirque due Soleil. They have almost a cult type following. And, even now, due to to some decline in sales for their Vegas shows, people are asking if they just have done too many shows there etc. Also, it's hard to compare something like Ringling Bros to something like Cirque. Cirque is more geared towards adults while Ringling Bros tries to make itself a family show.

And, I don't think that video games had much to do with a decline in popularity for the circus. They were around in the 90's when I went and if you think that they weren't popular back the then I have a bridge to sell you. I think that one reason for its decline is that the price for everything shot up, to a point where it became hard to afford things.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 8:53am

Cirque absolutely markets itself to families and is most certainly not geared towards adults. Some Cirque shows are more family oriented than others (I can't imagine kids enjoying the Beatles show too much), but they are absolutely a family driven product.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 9:59am

Emcee, first of all - I am well aware of the discrepancy between my anecdote and the mistreatment of circus animals. That's why I started my post with "for some reason." My point in relating the story was the ability of an animal to voice his unwillingness to cooperate at the moment seemed funny. I had mentioned earlier that animals couldn't speak up for themselves, and here was one who could. BTW, emcee - I noticed in that video that Alex's feathers were badly plucked all over his body. That doesn't speak well of the happiness of the bird. I'm not saying I'm sure he plucked because of the constant drilling and testing, but plucking can be a sign of unhappiness, among other things. Since you knew him, do you know the reason for his plucking?

Updated On: 3/22/10 at 09:59 AM

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:05am

Bway today, my comment about the attendance at circuses was based on what Namo said. I believed that because we were discussing animal abuse, he might have known the cause of people losing
interest, so I went with that.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:07am

Video games have nothing to do with it. I grew up in the video game explosion of the 80's. I played pac man so much my thumbs bled and I STILL got excited when the circus came to town.
Until I got older and realized what torture it must be for the animals in the show. Then it all seemed barbaric and I stopped going. And every person I know that's my age that doesn't go to the circus anymore says it's for the same reason.

[winston89]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:08am

Adam, Wintuk was the first Cirque show that Cirque themselves advertised as their first venture that was entering the family friendly market.

Now, I have only seen one other Cirque show and that was Kooza last spring. And, that is something that I wouldn't suggest parents take their kids to. There was a lot of jokes that, while not offensive at all, they were just more adult in their style of humor and not ones that are made for kid to be hearing.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:32am

I hoped so, because of course I know you're an animal lover, but reading your post I was just a little bit unsure! That's why I qualified one of my statements by saying something like, "if I am reading correctly." :) Alex was of course lucky that he COULD voice his discomfort or unwillingness at those times, which the elephants in the circus, for example, can't do quite so clearly -- and if they are trying to communicate it, their handlers are going to ignore it. He was adorable, and in his way, could be quite sassy. I liked him a lot, and Irene is a little bit nuts, but so, so brilliant. Anyway, I don't remember his feathers being plucked the times that I met him. The last time that I saw him (we met through some work connections) was several years before he died -- do you happen to know the date of the video? I do know that the work he did was hardly constant, in that he didn't simply exist to be a Research Animal; and was treated like pet royalty, and the video shows that he could choose an alternative if he wanted. So he was not, as it were, forced to think in the way that circus elephants are forced to perform. But anyway, I would be interested to see the clip if you still have the link.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:39am

Jeez, there were plenty of kids in the audience of Kooza when I saw it and they had a grand time. It's like Bugs Bunny, many of the jokes fly right over their heads, but they know a good time when they see one.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:41am

I'm definitely going to get that link for you!

Did you know that I also have a grey? She's only 15 months but (and I"m not being biased here) is EXTREMELY bright. She talks constantly all day long, and now can repeat words after only hearing them once. I'm not interested in teaching her tricks or anything like that, but each day brings new surprises! She's a very happy bird!

OK, going for the link.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:44am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6KvPN_Wt8I

Here it is - note how many times he asks to go back, lol!

He looks terrible, poor bird.

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:45am

And she makes fart noises and then laughs, so she's not only bright, but has a sense of humor!

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:46am

Cool, thanks.

I do! I remember the picture you had up, she is very cute! They're so smart. Alex may well have been unusually bright, but he was also taught more than any bird is going to need to know in its daily life, and had unusual opportunities to show his intelligence. But as a breed, their intelligence is talked about on levels with human children. Which I'm sure you know. :)

(You should post more pictures of your baby!)

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:52am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5cFMrM4LiQ

Here's a recent video of Jezebel talking. Some of it isn't very clear yet, but you can hear who's a good girl, what's that, gimme kiss, laughing, corn, and lots of kissing!

Updated On: 3/22/10 at 10:52 AM

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:53am

Oh, I remember that documentary. I can't remember the name, what year it was made, though. I think it's rather old, based on Pepperberg's age. Could he have been sick, would that have caused it? There's a comment that says they think he was just molting. But I remember him looking beautiful and healthy and very well-cared for. Nothing like that Hmm.

Updated On: 3/22/10 at 10:53 AM

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:53am

Wow. The woman working with Alex looks SO much like what we do in Applied Behavior Analysis with children with autism. His responses also remind me of them. If he doesn't get what he wants, he creates some other way to distract. "Can I have some water?" Very interesting.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 10:57am

I heard a great piece rebroadcast on NPR right after Alex died. The researcher explained that he was freaked out by an owl or other predator in the tree outside the window near which they were working and the researcher pulled the blinds down. This didn't settle Alex down at all, and it became clear that he had a sense of object permanence he knew the predator was still there on the other side of the blinds.

The way, say, an exotic animal might know the bullhooks are still there backstage out of view of the circus audience. (Had to bring it back, however laboriously, full circle).

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 11:05am

Maybe that's why he plucked?

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 11:10am

JerseyGirl, a lot of this research with animals has been very influential in behavior work with children, particularly those with autism and learning disabilities.

Jane, she is so cute.

That could explain it, Namo. They relocated several times -- perhaps a change of scenery would finally have calmed him about the owl. Did they say where it was that that happened? The video doesn't look like it was filmed at Brandeis.

Updated On: 3/22/10 at 11:10 AM

[winston89]

Posted: 3/22/10 at 1:00pm

Namo, I too did see some kids there when I went. But, your missing the point. The point that I am trying to make is that Cirque does tend to gear their shows towards adults. I mean, how many circuses can you think of that have a fancy restaurant attached as well as sell champagne at intermission.

Also, I am not saying that the bullhooks are not painful or anything of that nature What I am saying is is that it is known that some animals due tend to have a higher pain tolerance then humans. Now, I am sure the bullhooks hurt but the question is to what degree? That is something that we may never know. For all we know it could hurt them, however not to the extent that some feel that it does.