WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
#0WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 4:53pm
I just finished watching FAHRENHEIT 9/11, which prompted this post.
First, let me share that this film is biased from the beginning, from the opening menus of the DVD to the opening of the film. That's fine, that's what it is.
But as a young man of 19 who is uninformed of many details about the war, my thinking after seeing the film is that many parts of the film were taken out of context. That things cannot have been THAT way. It was just one negative thing after another after another. Bash Bush. Bash Bush. Bash Bush. Bash the war. Bash the election. Bash the government. Bash Bush. Bash Bush. And all the while, making fun of Bush.
So here is my question:
WHY WAS BUSH TOLERATED? I choose the word "tolerated" because he was allowed to remain in office.
If he was THAT bad, as depicted in the film, WHY is he still in office? Surely the people of this nation would rally against him. Surely the democrats wouldn't just use words, but constantly and consistently TRY to physically remove him.
Firstly, the election. Is it that we didn't know all this information Moore presents in time - during the re-count? This was nearly SIX years ago!
Secondly, the Iraq War. The film depicts that they were NEVER a threat. That Saddam Heussin was NEVER a threat. That bin Laden was NEVER a threat. It makes it seem like everyone was chummy with each other. Then - 9/11 happened. Bush plot to place blame on him? Did he really do it?
I know there are millions who hate Bush. So why don't these millions do anything? Why hasn't something been done in the past? Sure, sure, there were "investigations" and "reports." But again, the film depicts everything Bush has done is wrong and damaging to our country. Which leads me to believe that Bush must be doing SOMETHING right in order for him to stay in office.
Someone enlighten me here.
"The Spectacle has, indeed, an emotional attraction of its own, but, of all the parts, it is the least artistic, and connected least with the art of poetry. For the power of Tragedy, we may be sure, is felt even apart from representation and actors. Besides, the production of spectacular effects depends more on the art of the stage machinist than on that of the poet."
--Aristotle
--Aristotle
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#1re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:02pm
Many of us are asking the same question day after day. Bush continues to lie to us and the rest of the world and he's getting away with it.
Does it make you mad?
I hope so, because that's the only way to make people get up and take action.
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>>
“I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>>
-whatever2
#2re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:07pm
Well, sure, it gets me mad, but like I said, the film is an obvious bias. I have no idea what is taken out of context, what lies Michael Moore may be saying, or exaggerations, or anything positive Bush has done.
He's not out of office, so he MUST be doing something right...
"The Spectacle has, indeed, an emotional attraction of its own, but, of all the parts, it is the least artistic, and connected least with the art of poetry. For the power of Tragedy, we may be sure, is felt even apart from representation and actors. Besides, the production of spectacular effects depends more on the art of the stage machinist than on that of the poet."
--Aristotle
--Aristotle
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#3re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:15pmYou tell me what positive things Bush has done?
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>>
“I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>>
-whatever2
Cruel_Sandwich
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/30/05
#4re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:20pm
I dislike Bush as much as Moore does but I still believe that it's irresponsible to present satire as "journalism". My problem with the movie is that it could not make up its mind as to whether or not it wanted to be a satire or a serious piece of journalism. It worked as satire because Moore has a sharp eye and a talent for comedy. It failed as journalism because the movie is so biased that you can't take it as anything BUT satire.
That being said, I did enjoy watching it just as an ordinary movie. It's entertaining, it has a clear story, and it appeals to the human desire of revenge.
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#5re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:21pmIf you want to know the answer to your question "why", look to people like yourself who willingly admit years after the fact that you really don't know what's been going on. That's the answer.
#6re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:22pm
Again, as I stated in my initial thread:
"But as a young man of 19 who is uninformed of many details about the war..."
I am uninformed about Bush and recent political happenings.
I registered to vote, but didn't, because I was uninformed. I tried to become informed, but I was turned off from both Bush and Kerry. I didn't like either choice.
"The Spectacle has, indeed, an emotional attraction of its own, but, of all the parts, it is the least artistic, and connected least with the art of poetry. For the power of Tragedy, we may be sure, is felt even apart from representation and actors. Besides, the production of spectacular effects depends more on the art of the stage machinist than on that of the poet."
--Aristotle
--Aristotle
#7re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:24pm
Capn, now that you saw this, I suggest you track down (because it is hard to find --- actually, it isn't really for sale) Fahrenhype 9/11....saw it in school...
We had a big uproar because Michael Moore came (and paying him basically wiped out the funds) and a Republican was never invited.
One came for free...blanking on his name (Will edit when I remember)...and he showed pieces from this movie.
And once again: JUDGE JUDY 2008!
Updated On: 7/10/05 at 05:24 PM
#8re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:28pm
"If you want to know the answer to your question "why", look to people like yourself who willingly admit years after the fact that you really don't know what's been going on. That's the answer."
I knew this would come up.
I was 12 or 13 when Bush was first elected. I was 15 when 9/11 happened.
Very confusing times after 9/11 for a 15 year old knowing nothing of politics.
Four years later, at 19, I still know nothing. Because frankly I don't know who I can believe. Surely not Bush. Surely not Kerry. Surely - and DEFINITELY - not the media. Not even Michael Moore.
"The Spectacle has, indeed, an emotional attraction of its own, but, of all the parts, it is the least artistic, and connected least with the art of poetry. For the power of Tragedy, we may be sure, is felt even apart from representation and actors. Besides, the production of spectacular effects depends more on the art of the stage machinist than on that of the poet."
--Aristotle
--Aristotle
#9re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:29pm
Ah, so it is available!
http://www.fahrenhype911.com/
#10re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:34pm
First of all--there are no lies in the film. Moore fact checks and double fact checks.
Second, a documentary can be as biased as it wants to be. There's nothing wrong with Moore exposing facts through satire. Most people learn better through laughter.
Third, the reason why the man was reelected (if this election was legit) is that there are just that many people who believe the lies. And, much was said to denounce Moore's film as lies, where in fact, none of it is a lie. There is also great doubt in many areas--the possibility that just because A and B are true, doesn't mean that C necessarily is--but it COULD be. But, Bush's people (Rove primarily) have been brilliant at cover up and spin. And, unfortunately the film wasn't seen by ENOUGH people obviously. My exbf was hardcore GOP and Bush supporting. He agreed to watch the film and was very disturbed by what he saw and it has made him greatly doubt Bush and Co.
Check out http://www.michaelmoore.com for study guides, documentation and other extras that will give you more information about the film.
#11re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:35pm
"First of all--there are no lies in the film. Moore fact checks and double fact checks."
Everything said by Moore is true, the way he cuts it together makes it false.
#12re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:37pm
FahrenHype 9/11 seems like a must-see for anyone who has seen Fahrenheight 9/11. At first I thought this was a Michael Moore sequel.
Seems like an answer to my initial thoughts after seeing Moore's film.
Thanks, Thenardier!
"The Spectacle has, indeed, an emotional attraction of its own, but, of all the parts, it is the least artistic, and connected least with the art of poetry. For the power of Tragedy, we may be sure, is felt even apart from representation and actors. Besides, the production of spectacular effects depends more on the art of the stage machinist than on that of the poet."
--Aristotle
--Aristotle
#13re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:37pmThat isn't exactly true at all. There may be things that lead and sway in one direction, but nothing in it is false. If so, Moore would have been sued--and he has not been.
ConvinceMe2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/05
#14re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:38pmI tried watching that film a couple of times, but I can never get through it. It's a really poorly made film. Certainly the worst documentary I've ever seen.
ConvinceMe2 is dead. Long live BrendanStryker!
Cruel_Sandwich
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/30/05
#15re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:41pmFahrenheit 9/11 is not the worst documentary you've ever seen. The worst documentaries that have ever been made are promotional "making-of" specials of movies that lie to you by showing how wonderful the making of the movie was so that you will want to see it.
#16re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:41pm
"If so, Moore would have been sued--and he has not been."
He isn't sued because he hasn't done anything illegal.
I'll give an example from Farenhype 9/11...
In his Bowling for Columbine film, Moore shows Charlton Heston rejoicing AFTER news of the shooting. The fact is, this "metting" Norris held with the NRA, in which he postively talked about guns happened BEFORE the Columbine massacre.
One who didn't know this, would think Norris was happy, or apathetic in the least, with what happened.
And that's why Michael Moore is a genious at doing documentaries.
There's also another story of newspaper articles that he shwoed appearing in one newspaper...but they never appeared in it...so he made them up...but I'm a bit hazy on those details.
Updated On: 7/11/05 at 05:41 PM
#17re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:42pm
See jrb_actor and Thenardier, why I don't know who to believe. A STRONG GOP and Bush supporter, and after seeing the film, changes his mind. WHAT DID HE KNOW IN THE FIRST PLACE?
No one knows anything. The government is corrupt, both sides. I strongly believe in the system, but not the people in it.
Therefore, I will live my life and do theatre. Until something happens that affects me personally, I have no opinion. Many may find this attitude to be wrong, but it's how I feel. I can't believe a republican, a democrat, or the "unbiased, impartial" media.
"The Spectacle has, indeed, an emotional attraction of its own, but, of all the parts, it is the least artistic, and connected least with the art of poetry. For the power of Tragedy, we may be sure, is felt even apart from representation and actors. Besides, the production of spectacular effects depends more on the art of the stage machinist than on that of the poet."
--Aristotle
Updated On: 7/10/05 at 05:42 PM
--Aristotle
#18re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:43pm
Moore's biggest problem is that he's not educated. He doesn't have the tools to fight the system.
And he certainly doesn't know how to make a good film.
It's nice to be mad and want to do something about it, but you have to know how.
-Anyone want to turn anarchist with me?"Bless you and all who know you, oh wise and penguined one." ~YouWantItWhen????
#19re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:46pmOh good grief, that's why he wins major awards, great reviews, has broken the box office records for documentaries--because he makes bad ones? Think what you will, but let's not make foolish generalizations.
#20re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:48pmI would like to add Michael Moore's biggest fans are in European countried like Germany and France....countries that have hated America before Bush was even born.
#21re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:50pm
You have to admit most people like his movies because of his point of view, not because of his filming technique.
But hey, to each his own. I would argue that both Winged Migration and Spellbound (nominated along with Bowling for Columbine for Oscars 2002) were better FILMS.
-Anyone want to turn anarchist with me?"Bless you and all who know you, oh wise and penguined one." ~YouWantItWhen????
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#22re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:50pm
Hook, the problem is, if you do know what's going on...EVERYTHING that's going on, it will crush you. I spent a good deal of my youth keeping tabs on things. After a while of seeing that there is nothing but bull**** going on, it can wear on you.
Ask why the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND act is really a cover up to get information to draft students.
This happens all the time.
Now, you've got me depressed.
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>>
“I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>>
-whatever2
#23re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:50pm
Oh that is just foolishness. You are trying to imply that Moore hates America--and he absolutely does not. AND, his last two films did stunningly in the ol US of A.
#24re: WHY is this tolerated? (In response to Fahrenheit 9/11)
Posted: 7/10/05 at 5:52pm
Well, I don't trust anyone the size of a whale and living on land.
By the way, did anyone catch Moore on Jay Leno?
Let's say, SELL OUT.
He shaved, put on a suit, and said, "You can't win them all."
But anyway, let's have this convo AFTER you see FahrenHYPE 911
Updated On: 7/10/05 at 05:52 PM
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