"A New Deal For Broadway" abolishes all-white creative teams; includes commitments from Shubert, Nederlander, Jujamcyn to each rename theatres after a Black Artist- Page 5

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/26/21 at 5:53pm

everythingtaboo said: "If some of the people in this thread were business owners or educational leaders in the mid-20th century, the effort towards finding reasons to not even try because of whatever convenient "reasons" would'vekept the nation from breaking open doors for POC in the workplace and education. Have we learned nothing about visibility and inclusivity? Unreal."

Not one person has said that Black people shouldn't be hired. We've made the logical points that 1) as a practical thing, considering the enormous financial risks of Broadway shows, most producers are going to hire the people they've worked with before, not take chances on someone they haven't--unless the person under consideration already has a proven track record elsewhere, and 2) attacking and demonizing the hiring of people because they aren't of the "right" race, even if "right" means "Black," is a step backwards.

Not one of us has said producers shouldn't take a risk, nor that that risk wouldn't pay off beautifully, nor have we denied that there are Black designers equally talented, and surely in individual cases more talented, than the people currently working on Broadway. It would be great to have more Black talent on Broadway. More talent is always better than less talent. What we've pointed out are the reasons this approach to improving Black representation on Broadway is likely doomed to failure. 

I mean, come on, what nearly everyone wants right now is a return to the Broadway that was shut down by COVID, and here's a document saying "The Broadway that closed down isn't coming back." Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. The whole thing is about the most tone-deaf approach to the issue imaginable. That's the real problem with this approach--it won't work. 

Updated On: 8/26/21 at 05:53 PM

Posted: 8/26/21 at 7:39pm

I don't like quotas, and find them inherently racist, but I also don't really have any great policy ideas that would encourage diverse hiring, so I reluctantly accept that it's probably the best path forward.

Actually, maybe I take that back. One potential policy that I've seen in other industries (and I don't know if this would translate to theatre) is, rather than mandating the racial makeup of the final crew, mandating that a certain percentage of interviewees for each position comes from a minority demographic. This gives underrepresented groups an opportunity to break in across the entire crew, and seems like a more natural way to encourage diversity than by letting majority-white creative teams hire a single token black guy in order to check the diverse box without doing any further legwork.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 8/26/21 at 8:19pm

"I mean, come on, what nearly everyone wants right now is a return to the Broadway that was shut down by COVID, and here's a document saying "The Broadway that closed down isn't coming back." Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. The whole thing is about the most tone-deaf approach to the issue imaginable. That's the real problem with this approach--it won't work."

Pre-COVID Broadway privileged white voices and enabled Scott Rudin.
I highly doubt that culture is coming back in its entirety.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/26/21 at 8:24pm

joevitus said: "I mean, come on, what nearly everyone wants right now is a return to the Broadway that was shut down by COVID, and here's a document saying "The Broadway that closed down isn't coming back." Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. The whole thing is about the most tone-deaf approach to the issue imaginable. That's the real problem with this approach--it won't work."

1. You are wrong about what nearly everyone wants. [Why does this conjure up an image of racist Southerners sitting around singing Dixie and hoping the South will rise again?]

2. You are wrong to suggest that "[t]he Broadway that closed down is[] coming back." 

3. And you are manifestly wrong that it won't work because it already has. 

If you are oblivious to what has already happened, it is probably a bad idea to go slinging expressions like tine deaf around. LOL

@torres it would not translate because most of the people we are talking about are not hired by means of an interview process. 

Posted: 8/26/21 at 8:35pm

1. You are wrong about what nearly everyone wants. [Why does this conjure up an image of racist Southerners sitting around singing Dixie and hoping the South will rise again?]

2010s-era Broadway is the Confederate South now? This board is wild.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 12:23am

ctorres23 said: "2010s-era Broadway is the Confederate South now? This board is wild."

You do realize that no one made that comparison, right?

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 5:15am

ctorres23 said: "1. You are wrong about what nearly everyone wants. [Why does this conjure up an image of racist Southerners sitting around singing Dixie and hoping the South will rise again?]

2010s-era Broadway is the Confederate South now? This board is wild."

So glad I blocked this person. For the record, I don't know why they are having delusions, either. Perhaps medication can help.

Updated On: 8/27/21 at 05:15 AM

Posted: 8/27/21 at 7:40am

Maybe I am delusional. I thought joevitus said "nearly everyone wants a return to the Broadway that was shut down by COVID", i.e. pre-2020 Broadway, and you compared that desire to racists who wanted the return of the Confederacy. But maybe that didn't happen.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 8:55am

ctorres23 said: "Maybe I am delusional. I thought joevitus said "nearly everyone wantsa return to the Broadway that was shut down by COVID", i.e. pre-2020 Broadway, and you compared that desire to racists who wanted the return of the Confederacy. But maybe that didn't happen."

You are not delusional. You just didn't read what I wrote. Not only was there no comparison, you also seemingly missed the point. But whatever.

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 10:28am

ctorres23 said: "Maybe I am delusional. I thought joevitus said "nearly everyone wantsa return to the Broadway that was shut down by COVID", i.e. pre-2020 Broadway, and you compared that desire to racists who wanted the return of the Confederacy. But maybe that didn't happen."

You're delusional if you think people aren't thinking "I want Broadway back. I want things as they were pre-COVID." Because that's the constant refrain everywhere. So, yeah, maybe get  your head examined, too.

 

Posted: 8/27/21 at 10:46am

joevitus said: "You're delusional if you think people aren't thinking "I want Broadway back. I want things as they were pre-COVID." Because that's the constant refrain everywhere. So, yeah, maybe get your head examined, too."

Sorry, I misread your last post, but we're on the same page. I both want pre-COVID Broadway back, and I also think most Broadway fans (in particular the ones who aren't extremely-online) want Broadway to return in roughly the same state as when it shut down.

That being said, I do probably need my head examined.

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 11:26am

ctorres23 said: "joevitus said: "You're delusional if you think people aren't thinking "I want Broadway back. I want things as they were pre-COVID." Because that's the constant refrain everywhere. So, yeah, maybe get your head examined, too."

Sorry, I misread your last post, but we're on the same page. I both want pre-COVID Broadway back, and I also think most Broadway fans (in particular the ones who aren't extremely-online) want Broadway to return in roughly the same state as when it shut down.

That being said, I do probably need my head examined."

LOL. I appreciate this, and apologies on my part.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 11:31am

Can we unpack this a bit?

The thread is about an agreement to take steps in the direction of reducing the systemic racism that has always permeated Broadway. (It is not at all limited to Broadway; it exists throughout our society but has, until recently, been addressed far less in the Broadway community than in many other industries, but that's not our subject here.) The response to that positive step from joevitus and some others has been to (a) urge the typical "only the best" canard of systemic racism and (b) advocate against these steps as interfering with a glorious "back-to-before" dream that can only be effected if black people defer to their white overlords. That advocacy is rooted in blaming blacks for getting in the way of the vitality of Broadway's return by insisting on having a seat at every table. The wrench thrown in this systemic racism fandango is that the overlords have recognized that they need to seriously address that racism and have established a framework within which that can now happen. But of course I don't hear joevitus et al blaming the white overlords of Broadway for their plan. 

[BroadwayPatriot]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 1:28pm

As someone who works on Broadway, and has been backstage at over 2 dozen shows, the creative staff of almost every show I've seen is quite diverse, and would match the US racial makeup, which is still like 67-70% caucasian. There really is no under-representation, except perhaps in the orchestra pit, which from my experience tends to be Asian heavy. 

 It would be more constructive, instead of making demands and marching around in the street to perhaps enlighten black children, the wonderful world of the orchestra, and playing an instrument, or educate them on show tunes, live theater, its history, etc. this is a cultural thing. Black people are not usually aficionados of classical music or show tunes or theater in general and few take the career path of being a professional union musician, composer, etc. although my drum teacher at one point was a black Broadway drummer and perhaps the best I've ever seen play the drums. 

It seems to me the activists don't want diversity in theater, they want to take it over by coercion and bullying.  

[BroadwayNYC2]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 1:42pm

You really think you made a point there don’t ya.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 1:51pm

BroadwayPatriot said: "As someone who works on Broadway, and has been backstage at over 2 dozen shows, the creative staff of almost every show I've seen is quite diverse, and would match the US racial makeup, which is still like 67-70% caucasian. There really is no under-representation, except perhaps in the orchestra pit, which from my experience tends to be Asian heavy.

It would be more constructive, instead of making demands and marching around in the street to perhaps enlighten black children, the wonderful world of the orchestra, and playing an instrument, or educate them on show tunes, live theater, its history, etc. this is a cultural thing. Black people are not usually aficionados of classical music or show tunes or theater in general and few take the career path of being a professional union musician, composer, etc. although my drum teacher at one point was a black Broadway drummer and perhaps the best I've ever seen play the drums.

It seems to me the activists don't want diversity in theater, they want to take it over by coercion and bullying."

Thanks Uncle Vic! Bet those "five decades of Broadway experience" is serving you well in your Indiana basement. Kisses. 

[BroadwayPatriot]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 1:58pm

Sutton Ross said: "BroadwayPatriot said: "As someone who works on Broadway, and has been backstage at over 2 dozen shows, the creative staff of almost every show I've seen is quite diverse, and would match the US racial makeup, which is still like 67-70% caucasian. There really is no under-representation, except perhaps in the orchestra pit, which from my experience tends to be Asian heavy.

It would be more constructive, instead of making demands and marching around in the street to perhaps enlighten black children, the wonderful world of the orchestra, and playing an instrument, or educate them on show tunes, live theater, its history, etc. this is a cultural thing. Black people are not usually aficionados of classical music or show tunes or theater in general and few take the career path of being a professional union musician, composer, etc. although my drum teacher at one point was a black Broadway drummer and perhaps the best I've ever seen play the drums.

It seems to me the activists don't want diversity in theater, they want to take it over by coercion and bullying."

Thanks Uncle Vic!Bet those "five decades of Broadway experience" is serving you well in your Indiana basement. Kisses."

 

I live in the Bronx, right off Lydig Ave and White Plains Rd, 7 blocks from the zoo. I have no need to lie about my experiences, silly goose 

[Kad]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 2:28pm

BroadwayPatriot said: "As someone who works on Broadway, and has been backstage at over 2 dozen shows, the creative staff of almost every show I've seen is quite diverse, and would match the US racial makeup, which is still like 67-70% caucasian. There really is no under-representation, except perhaps in the orchestra pit, which from my experience tends to be Asian heavy."

The Asian American Performers Action Coalition’s latest visibility report makes it clear that, no, Broadway’s creatives are not a very diverse group: 

“93.8 percent of directors on Broadway were white in the 2018–2019 season; Off-Broadway, white people accounted for 78.7 percent of director positions (BIPOC directors increased by 5.9 percent in this space from the previous year). Numbers were similar for designers: 92.6 percent white on Broadway, 73.3 percent at non-profits.”

https://www.playbill.com/article/aapacs-new-theatre-diversity-study-underscores-prominence-of-white-leadership-on-nyc-stages

 

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 2:38pm

I live in the Bronx, right off Lydig Ave and White Plains Rd, 7 blocks from the zoo. I have no need to lie about my experiences, silly goose

No I totally get it, Uncle Victor. Thanks though, Broadway Patriot, for that response tho. 

 

[BroadwayPatriot]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 2:42pm

Kad said: "BroadwayPatriot said: "As someone who works on Broadway, and has been backstage at over 2 dozen shows, the creative staff of almost every show I've seen is quite diverse, and would match the US racial makeup, which is still like 67-70% caucasian. There really is no under-representation, except perhaps in the orchestra pit, which from my experience tends to be Asian heavy."

The Asian American Performers Action Coalition’s latest visibility report makes it clear that, no, Broadway’s creativesare not a very diverse group:

“93.8 percent of directors on Broadway were white in the 2018–2019 season; Off-Broadway, white people accounted for 78.7 percent of director positions (BIPOC directors increased by 5.9 percent in this space from the previous year). Numbers were similar for designers: 92.6 percent white on Broadway, 73.3 percent at non-profits.”

https://www.playbill.com/article/aapacs-new-theatre-diversity-study-underscores-prominence-of-white-leadership-on-nyc-stages

 

Of course, my experiences are not endemic of the entire industry, however, I've worked on over 2 dozen Broadway shows, and seen a diverse array of people.

You can always cook up stats to fit your agenda, you gave me agenda-driven analysis, I take nonpartisan, statistics more seriously. Take a look in a Broadway pit or a symphony, disproportionately the musicians are Asian, at least in NYC.

Have any of these activists, ever thought, that it isn't "racism" but perhaps a lack of interest in certain crafts among certain racial groups? The problem with the aggressive, slogan-shouting woke crowd, is they assume everything bad in the world is because of racism, the world is more complex than this. The idea would be to get younger Black and Hispanic kids, interested in professions that encompass theater, education is KEY.  Educators would rather preach helplessness, racism, and set children up for defeat before entering the real world. The woke, anti-racism ideology is brimming with negativity and will in time prove to be detrimental to society. The well-intentioned "left" continue to act on emotion, rather than careful analysis. This activist theater group is another extension of the anti-racism dogma. 

Again, instead of marching and making demands, more efforts should be made to enlighten and expose all ethnic groups to the theater. This is not rocket science. 

"

 

[Kad]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 3:00pm

…and what, exactly, would you accept as “non-partisan” stats? These are not unique findings for diversity numbers in theatre. You can’t say people need to act on “careful analysis” and then immediately dismiss analysis that doesn’t fit your perception.

You, meanwhile, have not even attempted to present any facts to back up your argument here.

If your response to people citing racism as an issue in an industry is to say that, no, the problem is that non-white people are just ignorant, then I think it’s pretty clear what the problem is.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 3:05pm

BroadwayPatriot, I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

As a part of the black community you are pretty much on target regarding black people not seeking a path to certain parts of the theater. It just isn't of major interest to our community unless it is a black oriented show. To this day I can't get any of my family, and in the past, my black friends, to go to the theater. They always said "It's for white people". But the Wiz, Dreamgirls, Patti LaBelle in "Your Arms Too Short.." or any other black show opens and they will pay top dollar. It does start with educating our kids in the black community (And not just the black community actually). I headed a program to expose and educate young black school children about theater. We planned for them to see two productions. One Shakespeare. We also took them on backstage tours for them to see what goes on behind the scenes. Most were amazed and had no clue this world existed and wanted to be a part of it. Unfortunately black kids are not getting good exposure to theater and that is why most don't choose that path or think it is too white. Anyone who thinks this is not part of the reason we don't see more black people in all aspects of the theater is wrong. It was what our organization was all about. Does theater need to do better? Yes. Hire those black people that are qualified. But what you described is most definitely part of the equation.

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 3:12pm

I think Broadway is fairly diverse in terms of performers and though I am nowhere near as sure, would imagine that this is probably true of backstage crews and pit musicians, too. It's rather hard to argue against this on the basis of the number of PoC regularly on Broadway, but then I remember when people complained there was an underrepresentation of  Black performers on television in the '90's, then the numbers were run, and it turned out the percentage of Blacks on television exceeded the percentage of Blacks in the US population. So I know that whatever the numbers, people will argue about this.

I would agree that Broadway is far far from as diverse as it could be when it comes to the creative teams that mount a show. And I think that should change. Would be nice to have Black producers and theater owners, too. 

But I also think, economics being what they are, nothing will change because of this mandate. And I think artificial quotas hurt more than they help. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 3:37pm

ok, so we have a group of demonstratedly racist trolls telling us how things are for black people, and that they just need to hush and listen to the white folks. Umhmmm. 

Luckily, the "news" in this thread is that the powers that be have put all this nonsense in the rear view mirror. But yeah, this is what racists do when they think they are losing control. PS, it's astonishing how unaware of things one must be to refuse to acknowledge the news that we are at the point of becoming a majority minority country. But that's the problem now, isn't it? 

[BroadwayPatriot]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 5:58pm

Hogan's hero contributes nothing to the topic, but calling anyone with an opinion that does not mirror his naive views is a racist!! Too bad I' cant be a racist, I'm  Puerto Rican Jew, I'm a double minority pal