A Sondheim rhyme that bothers me — Page 6

To go back to the damn Mrs. Lovett not saying "sh*tty" business, I think it works perfectly fine if you simply read it as:

"...it tastes like...(can't think of a good simile)...well...(changes subject to avoid saying sh*tty, the best thing she can think to call the awful pies, in front of a handsome stranger- despite it being the best thing she can think of)...pity a woman alone..." and then bringing it back to her limited wind, since she's too old to be chasing those quick ****cats like Mrs. Moony...maybe she even changes to a line about pitying a woman like her because he must know she was thinking of an inappropriate word and it's her apology/explanation for being so crass? I don't hate it.

Updated On: 10/31/11 at 10:02 PM

" Let the guy have some real fun for a change. Then we all benefit, right?"

No, not if his "fun" makes one cringe.

Has anyone considered that he's an old man and this thread could cause him apoplexy?

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This is now officially the "He's Old and His Rhymes Suck" Thread.

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Updated On: 11/1/11 at 09:06 AM

Now wait a minute, henrik! Having studied a little Japanese history (so that I could understand the theater), I believe the idyllic Japan of "Floating in the MIddle of the Sea" may be precisely how the Japanese themselves spoke of their own isolation.

After all, that was the justification for the isolation policy.

You are right, of course, that all sorts of political, social and economic machinations took place on the islands, but all such chaos was hidden beneath a facade of tranquility and order.

A favorite example of mine: the kabuki (originated by a prostitute) was considered too vulgar for the samurai class. But the latter wanted to enjoy the plays. So somebody created an oversized, cone-shaped hat that became the unofficial "disguise" of samurai warriors attending the theater. The "big-ass hat" made the samurai as invisible to other theatergoers as stage attendants dressed in black, yet prevented unfortunate interactions between the samurai and commoners.

So everyone knew the samurai attended the vulgar theater and everyone knew they did not. Tranquil. Ordered. Ideal.

It would not surprise me in the least to read a shogun or samurai writing about the perfect tranquility of isolated Japan, even as he rode forth to fight in one of the numerous civil wars fought under the Tokugawa shoguns.

And doesn't the rest of the play serve to prove just how fragile--even artificial--that tranquility was?

Updated On: 11/1/11 at 06:46 PM

Wow, Gaveston, I humbly defer to you on this. It never occurred to me that the Japanese saw themselves that way.

Pacific Overtures often seems to kinda get forgotten (notably it's the only one of the older Sondheim original cast albums that was ignored when they were remastered), but is one of my top scores, and, as seen in the filmed for Japan TV production, is an absolutely thrilling, theatrical show. But I admit as a huge geek for Japanese pop and non culture, I did usd to have some issues with it.

The openignwas one of them, but I finially came around to it for the exact same reasons Gaveston gives, which I think are spot on. Next used to bother me more--I used to get the sense that the feeling from it was kind of a condescending "Look how us Westerners ruined that lovely, delicate Japanese culture". Now I'm more ambivalent on it. Anyone who's spent as long in Japan as I did as a teenaged exchange student (5 monhts) knows that's absolutely not true, and there still is a very vibrant sense of their culture. So I don't think that was the original intention, but I do think some productions treat it that way.

I think that's been my mixed feeling about Next. It's sometimes done almost with the implication that Japan lost all of their unique culture which of course isn't remotely true. (Interestingly a more modern phenomenon has been just how much Japanese culture has influenced Western culture, often in subtle ways).

pinoyidol2006, I can say with complete conviction that Stephen Sondheim is the greatest lyricist in the history of the American musical theater (which probably means greatest in the world). And I'd rate him among the top 5 composers of musical theater--at least.

Most of this discussion has been conducted among Sondheim devotees. (After Eight will want me to note that he is the exception.) We're talking about the exceptions we notice precisely because they are so rare in Sondheim's work.

Eric, do you know if the Pacific Overtures you saw on Japan TV was the wonderful production the National Theater of Japan brought to Lincoln Center several years ago?

"pinoyidol2006, I can say with complete conviction that Stephen Sondheim is the greatest lyricist in the history of the American musical theater (which probably means greatest in the world). And I'd rate him among the top 5 composers of musical theater--at least. "

Balderdash.

Absolute, ludicrous balderdash.

And here I thought you were an astute judge of theatre.

Another illusion gone.

And also, since you hardly know every language in the world, perhaps you should refrain from commenting on the lyricists in those languages.

"Balderdash" is a sight more an 88-year-old's word rather than an 8-year-old's word.

js

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