Andrew Lloyd Webber Vs. Sondheim - Page 4

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 8:49pm

Good point, Eric. There are Bernstein scores (including 1600 PENN) that I haven't heard.

I know WONDERFUL TOWN may not compare on record, but in the theater (even with Lauren Bacall barking the title role) it really was a lovely score. Heresy I know, but I actually prefer it to the "other" Bernstein TOWN.

I'm not being fair to WSS: songs like "America", "A Boy Like That" and even "Officer Krupke" are amazing. I just get worn out by the simple ballads. By the time they get to "Somewhere", I'm usually thinking, "Yes! Let's go there!"

Yes, we do need to catch up...

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 8:59pm

This is the comparison I keep going back to...

ALW vs Sondheim = Antonio Salieri vs. Mozart

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:08pm

I guess with WSS I think especially of the dance music, so...

Wonderful Town is great--I just would rank it last (out of four--or five counting 1600 really strong musicals.) It's miraculous that he wrote the score last minute in under five weeks. I admit, I've never seen it on stage, though I enjoy the Hell out of the slightly edited Roz Russell TV version (now that we've had releases of things like the weird 1950s Anything Goes TV airing and Kiss Me Kate, they really should release WT--IMHO it's the best done of that lot, by far.)

The reason I prefer On the Town is largely for the transcendent ballet music on it--some of my fave Bernstein stuff (I'm glad the CD remaster of the semi-OBC includes the later recorded dance suite.) Though it also has a couple of my fave Berstein songs such as Cook Too and Lonely Town.

LYL out of curiousity, have you listened to much Salieri? ...just curious...

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:33pm

From Wikipedia:

"Salieri was a pivotal figure in the development of late 18th-century opera. As a student of Florian Leopold Gassmann, and a protégé of Gluck, Salieri was a cosmopolitan composer who wrote operas in three languages. Salieri helped to develop and shape many of the features of operatic compositional vocabulary and his music was a powerful influence on contemporary composers."

You said it, not me.

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:37pm

Eric-- I have a couple CDs with a few piano concertos and selections from LES HORECES and SEMIRAMIDE... It's enjoyable and bits and pieces are rather inspired (particularly SEMIRAMIDE) but really can't compare to DON GIOVANNI or THE ABDUCTION FROM THE SERAGLIO... When you compare both composers musically, you can really understood why Peter Shaffer explored the theme of mediocrity...

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:37pm

I know in recent years (or maybe longer--post the Amadeus fuss anyway) it's been almost trendy for people to point out that Salieri wasn't as bad as Shaffer has caused people to think he is. That said I've heard exactly three pieces by him, so...

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:40pm

Salieri is definitely not as a bad as Shaffer paints him. It's just when you compare him to Mozart--- there's really no contest.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:55pm

Well, yeah... Mozart's rep as being essentially the best of the best of his era is justified (and, to me--and so I guess we agree--I would say the same of Sondheim.)

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:57pm

(Except of course that, unlike Mozart, the one thing everyone is forgetting is that Sondheim's music is ugly. I think that deserves emphasis....)

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 10:04pm

If we're talking in terms of fame and prestige you know ALW would be Mozart, right?

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 10:05pm

He was such a good match for George Seurat because Seurat's art was so butt ugly.

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 10:29pm

Fame yes... Prestige-- That's VERY debatable...

Studying music theory and composition in college-- ALW was referenced mostly as the butt of people's jokes. I'm not saying I went to Julliard or anything, but I can't recall anyone calling ALW anything but overrated particularly when comparing his work to other musical theatre composers like Sondheim and Bernstein

Updated On: 3/5/13 at 10:29 PM

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 10:38pm

Well, prestige to the general population

[fingerlakessinger]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 11:22pm

Both are amazing. I enjoy ALW, and Sondheim.
They both know how to write to their strengths. Sondheim knows how to write for a character and for a moment that will move the plot along. Webber knows how to write a song that will sound powerful and stick with the audiences. I really don't see what all the arguing is about.
Both have weakness IMO. Webber relies to heavily on repeat motifs and doesn't know how to edit himself. Sondheim can be a bit of a bore at times.
Either way, both have contributed a crap load to the musical theater world.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 11:28pm

How can this thread have gotten so far without anyone mentioning that immortal Patti LuPone interview where she calls Andrew Lloyd Webber a "very sad man" and "an alcoholic" who "just wants to be Stephen Sondheim"?

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 11:58pm

"Damn, how could I have forgotten! I love Sondheim and find his music often so incredibly moving, because, well, it's ugly."

Yep, that does make you an odd duck, doesn't it?

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 12:08am

"Well Leonard Bernstein trumps both of them, so I guess we're arguing for second place?"

Lyls,

Your one sentence makes more sense than all the reams of bombast we've had to wade through in this thread.

And it is not only Bernstein. There are about fifty other composers who are better than both of them. So this "battle" is for a whopping 51st place, or thereabouts.

Wouldn't it be nice if the members of a theatre discussion board actually paid attention to those other fifty for a change?

[Wynbish]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 12:12am

So, the question should be "Who does each person think is better: ALW or Sondheim?" instead of "Who's the absolute best?"



Updated On: 3/6/13 at 12:12 AM

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 12:31am

^

Actually, the question should be, why are we discussing these two ad infinitum when there are so many better composers we ignore entirely?

[Wynbish]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 12:47am

Because that's what the OP asked and the discussion followed in suit. The answer to "ALW or Sondheim?" is not "Rodgers".

Updated On: 3/6/13 at 12:47 AM

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 1:02am

Wynbish..... Wynbish.....

Yeah, we all understand that.

But there's a larger issue here.

So do you think you could be a little less....... constricted?

And if all you can do is parrot the same line, "but the OP asked....," don't bother. Just have a cracker.

[Wynbish]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 1:25am

I will try to be less constricted. Bear with me.

Fact is, there are people here who answer this thread and others and offer their opinion that Sondheim is the best composer/lyricist to them, which would automatically make him better than ALW to them. Others agree that he is a personal best and chime in. Others additionally think he may not be the best but he is at least better than ALW and also chime in. There is a tendency to impose that the personal opinion that Sondheim is the best is not appropriate or meaningful since clearly, the personal opinion that Bernstein, Porter, Coleman, and others are better than Sondheim is the ultimate opinion, and it is a shame that it's not shared more.

I am not a "Sondheim worshiper" as it has been called on here. I prefer R&H and Porter. They're simpler without losing heart or resonance. They're funner, which is important to my personal definition of entertainment. They are more melodic and accessible to the general public. They have a nostalgia that is endearing.

Sometimes, the Sondheim-mania will come out in threads where it is not warranted, and such comments against this "bombast" are appropriate there. This is not such a thread and saying that it is is a little, well, constricting.

And you're right in that this thread limits discussion of people who outrank these two and that we are most likely arguing for 10th place.

[AwesomeDanny]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 1:31am

"I like very dramatic shows with bigger than life gut wrenching ballads and overall musically charged and powerful scores."

Does Sondheim not have those? Not a Day Goes By, Losing My Mind, Send in the Clowns, Being Alive, Finishing the Hat, and No One Is Alone are prime examples of gut-wrenching ballads. I would describe all of Sondheim's scores as musically charged and powerful, while I find Andrew Lloyd Webber's to be rather dull, most of the time. Andrew Lloyd Webber music tends to be very simplistic, which can be an effective tool for one particular moment, but when used for two hours, the show can start to drag. Sondheim's music is often filled with complexities. I suppose to the untrained ear, the conventional sounds more "right," but to me, the unconventional is more exciting.

But once you get past that, I have never understood Andrew Lloyd Webber's insistence in using rock music for every show. It makes sense for Jesus Christ Superstar, given the concept, but for Phantom of the Opera? The electric guitars always take me out of the moment.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 2:49am

Updated On: 3/6/13 at 02:49 AM

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 6:07am

Awesome, of course Sondheim has those, like I said he is one of my favorite composers and I consider Company a master piece. I mean more vocally powerful if that makes any sense like Memory, Don't cry for me Argentina, Grhsemane, I don't know how to love him, Wishing you were somehow here again, Till I hear you sing, Love Never Dies, All I ask of you... To me those songs are anthemic and powerful, again not that Sondheim's aren't. I'm not saying ALW is the better composer of the two, in fact Sondheim could very well be the best composer, I just happen to enjoy more the ALW shows. It doesn't mean my ear is "untrained" because I do appreciate Sondheim and listen to him a lot.

I just couldn't picture POTO without the rock music on the title song.

And to others who have posted regarding why compare only this two: Simply because they are the most significant and more talked about composers of recent times. They're basically the only two composers living who could be considered household names. They're certainly not the only great MT composers I also love more classic composers like Bernstein, Jerry Herman, Jule Styne, Kander and Ebb and the incomparable Irving Berlin. These all deserve recoginition for their beyond significant contributions to the American Musical Theatre cannon. Feel free to praise them as you like. The reason why I compare only this two is for the obvious reasons.