Andrew Lloyd Webber Vs. Sondheim - Page 5

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 7:33am

"They're basically the only two composers living who could be considered household names. "

Perhaps ALW. But the only households in which Stephen Sondheim is a household name are the households of the people on BWW. (Actually, his name is banned from my household.) The rest of the world doesn't even know who he is.

[pinoyidol2006]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 12:10pm

I've enjoyed pieces from both, but I vastly prefer Sondheim's material. Every time I listen to a song of his, it's like there's an imaginary theater in my head and I can see the number being staged. I don't have the same experience with ALW's music. The only exception for me is "A New Argentina" because I've watched that Tony Awards performance many times. I can clearly picture LuPone singing her lungs out whenever I listen to that song.

[fingerlakessinger]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 12:44pm

After Eight, I'm sorry but that is not a very accurate statement.
Many of the shows Sondheim has written either lyrics or music or both for have become famous. Look at "West Side Story"
"Send in the Clowns" itself is a VERY famous song. Perhaps his name is not well known to today's generation (the ones who think Bieber is a God...which is disgusting btw) but to an older generation it certainly is.
Also, Sondheim was on The Colbert Report. Not exactly HUGE but it shows that his name does carry a lot of weight.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 4:11pm

For me the bottom line is how well the scores play on records (CD's) divorced from the theatrical presentations.

For me, EVITA plays very well on records. I can follow the text and enjoy the flow and variety of music. CATS starts off well but gets tedious as it progresses. I have always enjoyed the Broadway recording of version of SONG AND DANCE - The Songs. (The "Varaitions" suite from Paganini's A-minor caprice left me cold even as a concert piece.)

Eric - You asked about LOVE NEVER DIES. Got it the day it came out and sat down and listened to it from start to finish...and have had no desire to return to it. I saw it on PBS and found it nearly impossible to get through.

Does familiarity withe a score factor in? Perhaps. Year of listening to the cast albums of COMPANY and FOLLIES have not dimmed the enjoyment I feel when I play the recordings now. When the 2-LP album of SWEENEY TODD came out in the summer of 1979 I played through all 4 sides every single night after dinner and could not wait to see this stunning piece on stage. With MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG I first saw the show on stage (in previews) and went back to see it again 2 nights later because so many of the songs were stuck i my head and I wanted to hear them again. The wait for the album was interminable. (It did not get released until 6 months later.) With SUNDAY, the album arrived about 3 weeks before I saw the show and going in being somewhat familiar with what was coming (musically) made it easier for me to relax and focus on the stunning stage pictures. I often wondered if those hearing the score cold in the theatre could fully appreciate it at once. INTO THE WOODS was so much fun on stage I doubted that it woudl come across as well on records, but it did (at least with the first recording.) ASSASSINS I first heard when the recording came out and was dazzled by the musical construction. The musical phrase that accompanies the line "The Country is not what it was" still gives me goosebumps. Hearing Angel's CD of PASSION revealed to me a rich tapestry of a score that I often compare to a chamber opera. BOUNCE was my most recent opportunity to hear a Sondheim score fresh in the theatre (at the Chicago premiere) and I found it tuneful, and memorable..even if seeing the show I could not quite understand why this story was being presented as a musical.

In all the Sondheim shows have given me much enjoyment on stage and on records. As noted in my previous report, the Lloyd Webber shows have been very hit and (mostly) miss for me. It does not bother me at all that many people find the ALW shows more enjoyable. It's like one of my best friends who adores Mary Martin and often makes fun of Ethel Merman. I have always liked the Merman sound and style which to me epitomized the glory days of musical comedy, fully understanding why to some she comes off as too brassy and loud. (She was a very warm and gracious lady when interviewed for a radio program I produced.) Just as I understand how Sondheim's musical structures geared to emphasizing the lyrics can throw off ears that are looking for a melodic hook.

The argument that one name is better know over another doesn't really make sense. Even today I find that many regulars here are only vaguely aware of the names Vincent Youmans, Richard Whiting, Harold Arlen and even Meredith Willson and the contributions of these writers to the Broadway musical stage.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 4:21pm

"Perhaps ALW. But the only households in which Stephen Sondheim is a household name are the households of the people on BWW. (Actually, his name is banned from my household.) The rest of the world doesn't even know who he is. "

Shockingly we disagree. I would agree that "the rest of the world" couldn't name a Sondheim piece--even Sweeney or Send in the Clowns or West Side Story, most prob wouldn't know who wrote or co-wrote. But his name is well known enough as someone who does musicals that it can be dropped in late night opening monologues, sitcoms, etc, and the audience will get it on some level (even if it's just shorthand for implying someone is gay because they listen to Sondheim.)

ALW is definitely better known to the mainstream. I just meant that despite how different their work is (in creative and commercial terms,) they are probably the only two currently working musical composers whose names are well known enough to non theatre audiences--which is why I think they are so often compared in random poles (there was even one on Entertainment Weekly a few years back)--even though it would make more sense to compare them with others.

But you disagree with all that. :)

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 4:25pm

FrontRow--

I didn't ask about LND :P I just mentioned it because the original poster didn't put it in his list, that's all--and then I followed up by saying I actually think it has some of ALW's better music in a long time but the reason so many deride it has nothing to do with the music (or little to do with it.) I do question someone who didn't even like Phantom buying the DVD though--but I know you like to collect everything

Not sure I agree, in theory, with your "how well it plays on record" judgement, personally. I think it's more than valid to call a score a success if it works brilliantly on stage but not on CD. However, in practice I more or less agree with you, especially about the re-listenability (not a word, I'm sure) of Sondheim's shows.

[jnb9872]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 5:14pm

I think it comes down to whether you prefer theatre that is most appreciated by your eyes and ears, or by your heart and mind. ALW never strikes me as anything but surface-depth; often extremely well-presented but aritificial and shallow. The melodies of his most famous songs are often breathtakingly beautiful, but the same can't be said when hearing them repeated as lesser-known recitatives (and without regard to character - someone made that great point earlier, that ALW reprises motifs without any semblance of compositional intention besides "it's pretty") Sondheim's shows, almost to a T, seems to gnaw deep into my soul with layers of resonance and beauty. Webber melodies are earworms, they get stuck in my head for weeks. Sondheim's songs reverberate character and situation, and while "Think of Me" or "And the Money Kept Rolling In" may be mindlessly occupying my eardrums on the subway to work, whenever "Not a Day Goes By" or "Children Will Listen" or "Move On" or "Unworthy of Your Love" or whatever Sondheim song that worms its way into my attention takes over in my mind, it invariably brings with it remnants of the chills of recognition or pangs of yearning or whatever respective emotional/intellectual response the song extracts in context.

Of course, beauty is in the eye (and ear) of the beholder. I find three-dimensional beauty greater than two-dimensional beauty, for I have found that I place value in that sort of artistic ambition. Others find the prism of complexity to be a hindrance to pure melodic bliss. Others have the right to their values.

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 6:06pm

Wouldn't it be amazingly great if they both collaborated on a show??

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 7:19pm

^^^^What would Lord Andrew contribute? Would he produce?

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 7:26pm

Andrew could write the music and Stephen could write the lyrics. Cameron should produce and Hal should direct.

Updated On: 3/6/13 at 07:26 PM

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 9:12pm

"they are probably the only two currently working musical composers whose names are well known enough to non theatre audiences"

Right, like no one knows who Elton John or Alan Menken is. Or Cyndi Lauper. Or Bono.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 9:28pm

You are grasping, Sir. Neither Elton John, nor Cyndi would ever call themselves a theatre composer when asked what they do--nor would their fans. Sondheim and ALW would. I always trhink of Alan Menken as more famous as a movie composer (Disney specifically), but his name is probably out there, I grant you. I still don't think it would pop up in a Jeopardy question or a crossword puzzle the way ALW and Sondheim would, but...

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 9:30pm

I do question someone who didn't even like Phantom buying the DVD though--but I know you like to collect everything

Guilty :) I do want to hear every Broadway score - new or old. Still unhappy that no one ever recorded the full scores of HONEYMOON LANE and QUEEN HIGH...the Light opera company medleys are interesting and yet frustrating because they are so short!

As for Composers whose names are considered well-known - the sad fact is that most followers of "pop" music have no idea who the songwriters are. Even Elton John's name as composer of BILLY ELLIOT didn't seem to help sell any additional tickets. (it didn't help that he could not come up with a "hit tune" to help promote the show. A title tune maybe?)

The names of Sondheim and Lloyd Webber are a strong enough draw to help get ticket sales going. In a day when cast albums do not generally sell all that well, new releases by both composers have stimulated a lot of interest. When the CD of PASSION was delayed a week Variety reported many fans leaving record stores disappointed. Similarly, eager fans were anxiously awaiting the arrival of LOVE NEVER DIES in stores a few summers back.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 9:43pm

Gee, I wonder what Aida, Lestat, The Lion King, Billy Elliot, God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater, Little Shop of Horrors, Weird Science, Beauty and the Beast, A Christmas Carol, King David, The Little Mermaid, Sister Act, Newsies, and Leap of Faith were.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 10:50pm

Musicals :) I gave you Alan Menken, though I don't think his name is as well known as are his shows (I would argue Sondheim is the opposite...) But nobody ever refers toi Cyndi Lauper or Elton John or Bono and the Edge as theatre composers--not even in reviews of their theatre work.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 11:10pm

"I gave you Alan Menken"

Then your statement,

"they are probably the only two currently working musical composers whose names are well known enough to non theatre audiences"

was wrong, wasn't it?

You're gasping...........

Sir.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/6/13 at 11:15pm

Well I still don't think Alan Menken as a name is as well known as ALW or Sondheim (again as names), so you win :) But I stand by the Cyndi Lauper comment... Such fun!

[Emma White]

Posted: 3/7/13 at 1:34am

I love this thread.

My long and boring thoughts:

I think ALW has written some amazing things, in particular Evita. I think the music in Cats is brilliant as well. Jesus Christ Superstar is my childhood, and one of the first CDs I ever owned was The Best of Andrew Lloyd Webber.
That being said- nothing by ALW has never shocked me with its beauty, or complexity, or intricacy the way Sondheim does.
When I listen to On the Steps of the Palace, or Ever After, or Your Fault, or Sunday, or We Do Not Belong Together, or Not a Day Goes By, or The Miracle Song, or A Little Priest, or the last bit of Everybody Loves Louis (right before she shouts "Louis it is!") or Not Getting Married Today, etc. I am reminded of what music is, and why I love musical theatre.
I think one of the things that often makes Sondheim music doesn't even rhyme - it's just dialogue with notes (see We Do Not Belong Together), and then the other half it rhymes so much it's overwhelming (see On the Steps of the Palace).

Also, nothing will ever be as good as the lyric "It's your father's fault that the curse got placed and the place got cursed in the first place."

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/7/13 at 6:39am

Emma, I agre woth you till certain extent. As far as lyrics there would never be anyone to come close to Sondheim. I've been deeply touched by some of his music. That being said we can't deny the fact that some of his music can be a bit weak. For instance, although it is one of my favorite songs of all time, if you take the lyrics out of Ladies who lunch you get elevator music.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/7/13 at 6:59am

"if you take the lyrics out of Ladies who lunch you get elevator music."

Not really. Elevator music can be very pretty.

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/7/13 at 7:06am

I don't know how you can compare them.

Sondheim writes music and lyrics for his songs. He doesn't orchestrate, he doesn't produce shows.

Lloyd Webber writes music only, no lyrics. He often orchestrates or co-orchestrates his music, and produces or co-produces shows.

If you're just talking about the songwriting only, you have to add in any number of lyricists for Webber's work, where Sondheim writes both.

Updated On: 3/7/13 at 07:06 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/7/13 at 7:22am

If you're going to draw comparisons, you should level the playing field and line up people who actually do the same thing:

Composers (music only, for the most part, but with exceptions):

Andrew Lloyd Webber
Frederick Loewe
Richard Rodgers
Leonard Bernstein
George Gerswhin

Songwriters (music and lyrics):

Stephen Sondheim
Jerry Herman
Cole Porter

All spoken word - book and lyrics (but no music):

Oscar Hammerstein
Alan Jay Lerner
Comden and Green

Lyrics only (for the most part):

Lorenz Hart
Ira Gershwin

People who do all three (book, music, and lyrics):

Meredith Willson
Lionel Bart


... people like that.

Updated On: 3/7/13 at 07:22 AM

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/7/13 at 9:28am

Best, While I absolutely agree with you on comparing people within their own fields I think it is inevitable to compare this two.

But to go along with your analysis:

My favorite composer (besides ALW):
Jule Styne

Songwriter:
Jerry Herman

All spoken word-
Fred Ebb (He did write most of the book for Chicago)

Lyricist:
Tim Rice

Triple thread-
Lionel Bart (with George M. Cohan a close second)

[jnb9872]

Posted: 3/7/13 at 10:50am

The OP posed the debate, which has occasionally deviated into periphery, but this is a very perceptive point. Herman and Porter are definitely more interesting comparison points for Sondheim, while (to me) ALW sticks out like a sore thumb in that shortlist from the other four.

I also think, personally, of contemporary musical writers, that more interesting comparisons can be made for Sondheim v. Kander/Ebb (as alluded to previously) but also Sondheim v. Yeston, Sondheim v. Finn (much funnier and more neurotic, even), Sondheim v. Flaherty/Ahrens (arguably his rivals in pairing musical style with setting), Sondheim v. Schwartz (certainly more populist), even Sondheim v. Larson or JRB or Guettel or the entire new generation. I don't think ALW is much of a comparison (not to slight him or his work personally), they just don't seem to be playing the same game. ALW is checkers, Sondheim is chess.

[chinto1984]

Posted: 3/7/13 at 12:08pm

i enjoy both. it seems from interviews with broadway people and documentaries that Sondheim liked more than ALW regardless of music talents. Sondheim is American and I think Broadway holds that very dear. Also, Sondheim seems to hold a lot of love for Broadway's tradition and just Broadway. ALW always comes across as loving himself and wanting everyone to tell him how much they love him. ALW has bad press.