Andrew Lloyd Webber Vs. Sondheim - Page 2

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/4/13 at 12:59am

While I don't agree as strongly as you, I appreciate most of your points, Mark (though I have a soft spot for everything--the good and the bad--to do with Aspects of Love--oh and at least in Vancouver I thought Diahann Carroll was thrilling even in moments that as written were less than thrilling.) That said, you lost me here:

"The songs merely recap what has already been covered in the text and the songs add nothing of value. "

Ummm... In Sunset there isn't really much dialogue. Yes the songs tend to hammer in the point, but if there were no songs there'd be no story as it is written...

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/4/13 at 6:24am

It may sound odd but one of the things I like most about Andrew Lloyd Webber is his use of repetition throughout the score. This was indisputably best done in Jesus Christ Superstar.

I share your view regarding his collaborations, I wish that he would go back to Tim Rice or find another unexpected source of material like the T.S. Elliot poems were. BTW cats is one of my favorite musicals and I love the music specially, but not limited to, Memory which I think is one of the greatest ballads ever.

Sunset Boulevard is one of my favorite albums, and it's fairly easy to follow the story by just listening to it. I'm a huge POTO fan and I've never had to come up with an excuse for liking the show. Most people just assume the obvious, the music, the spectacle, the passion and romance, but most of all the music.

I'm not that familiar with Starlight or Aspects of Love apart from listening to both of their recordings, so I can't elaborate on those, although I really like Seeing is Believing.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 3/4/13 at 1:56pm

Eric, Instead of "text" I should have said recitative. (Another bug for me..why set dialogue to music needlessly? It results in absurdities as in ASPECTS when one character sings "Would you like some coffee?")

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 3/4/13 at 10:33pm

Sunset Boulevard is one of my favorite albums, and it's fairly easy to follow the story by just listening to it. I'm a huge POTO fan and I've never had to come up with an excuse for liking the show. Most people just assume the obvious, the music, the spectacle, the passion and romance, but most of all the music.

The original film of SUNSET is a particular favourite of mine and when I read in 1981 that Stephen Sondheim and Hal Prince were planning it as a new musical for Angela Lansbury I was thrilled with idea...Like FOLLIES, it could trade on nostalgia by resetting the story to show the leading lady as a one-time star of big Hollywood musicals. This would give a chance for former Hollywood musical stars (Jane Powell, Debbie Reynolds, Marge Champion, etc) to appear. It would also set up some terrific pastiches of the M-G-M style overblown production numbers.

It never happened. (In a letter from Mr. Sondheim he explained to me that it was just Miss Lansbury's press agent wishing it into existence.)

A decade passed, and the CD of the London cast with Patti Lupone arrived. I listened in horror as the musical took sections of the original screenplay and set it to dull-ish recitative style music pausing (stopping dead actually) to plug in a big number. I found none of the songs seemed to be of the same cloth..and thanks to an article published in Show Music magazine I learned that ALW had pulled a selection of trunk songs and instructed the lyricists to outfit the tunes with new words. Many of the songs came from his score for his mini-musical CRICKET.

This is, obviously, not a way to ensure a consistent tone to the music, which is especially important in a mood piece like SUNEST BLVD.

When it opened in New York the reviews were very mixed but Glenn Close won raves for her star performance. The show quickly became a "hot ticket": but except for the stellar revival of SHOW BOAT it had no real challenger.

The Tony Awards committee debated the sad state of affairs: Should they cancel the awards that year and admit it had been a dismal season, or simply let SUNSET and the only other "new" show (a jukebox musical built around old songs) compete in two-show race for Best Musical. They chose the latter. They also awarded ALW a Tony for his score without any other nominees So, SUNSET swept the Tony Awards with the only real competition coming from revivals of SHOW BOAT and HOW TO SUCCEED. Vincent Canby summed up the sorry situation writing at the time "Awards don't really tell you much when the competition is feeble or simply nonexistent, as was the case the year that Sunset Boulevard won its Tony. Such prizes are for use in advertising and promotion and to impress the folks back home."

The show ultimately closed after a 2 1/2 year run "setting the record for the most money lost by a theatrical endeavor in the history of the United States" as reported in the New York Times. The London production also folded without recouping and the Toronto production played much of its run to small or heavily papered houses. (No wonder Diahann Carroll seemed distressed. Or maybe she just knew she was wrong for the part, a victim of stunt casting.) After Toronto it went to Vancouver for a short stay..ERIC: What were the sales like there?

Every so often someone posts here that they would like to see the show revived. Of course any show can be revived but the huge costs and losses associated with the original production would necessitate a scaled down production...and the one element that audiences loved in the original was the spectacular stage set of Norma's mansion.

SO what we have is poorly executed musical adaptation of a classic film, saddled with an erratic score which at times sounds way too contemporary for story set in 1949-1950. I doubt anyone could make a success out of this flop. Better to go back to the source material and start fresh. There is a great musical (or opera) to be made out of this story, but ALW's SUNSET BLVD is not it.

Hey...since ALW thinks it totally all right to interpolate his songs into the score of WIZARD OF OZ, would he allow someone else to redo much of the score for SUNSET? Probably not.

By the time SUNSET came along I was already becoming disenchanted with the Lloyd Webber shows. SUNSET finished him for me. I like SUPERSTAR and EVITA has long been a favourite show of mine. I did like JOSEPH at first until the show was done too often by local theatre troupes. But his later shows have left me cold... and none has been a bigger disappointment to me than his SUNSET BLVD.

In many ways ALW is a modern day Ivor Novello. (Novello produced opulent operettas on the London stage between 1935 and 1950. His shows were big hits with lush romantic scores - and are all but unrevivable today because of their clumsy books, and production designs that would bankrupt even the most deep-pocketed producer.)

Thanks to the millions generated by CATS and PHANTOM he can afford to produce his shows any way he likes, but I have to wonder how much longer the mounting losses generated by STARLIGHT EXPRESS, ASPECTS OF LOVE, WOMAN IN WHITE, BOMBAY DREAMS (which he produced) and two flop revivals of SUPERSTAR can be offset. These production illustrate the myth that all you need is Lloyd Webber's name on the marquee to sell tickets.

I like SUPERSTAR and EVITA has long been a favourite show of mine. I did like JOSEPH at first until the show was done too often by local theatre troupes. But his later shows have left me cold... and none has been a bigger disappointment to me than his SUNSET BLVD. How I wish the Sondheim/Prince/Lansbury version had come to fruition. (Some reports claim it was to be a movie musical remake, but the item published in the New York Times around the time MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG was starting previews in 1981 said it was projected for Broadway in the 1982/83 season.)

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/4/13 at 11:18pm

I believe Vancouver sold really well--but it was a limited run with something else (Livent's Show Boat? I can't remember if that was before or after,) booked. They briefly thought about moving it somewhere else for a while (Edmonton or Calgary seems to come to mind) but I believe it was deemed too expensive. Despite good sales, Vancouver has a weird theatre climate, as I'm sure you know, and it probably wouldn't have sole for much longer if they had been able to extend it.

Why was Carroll miscast? Did you never see her on Dynasty?? :P (Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree here...) I also liked Rex but a lot of that may have been my crush on him (and the first time I saw it, with our school theatre troup, he gave us a backstage tour and was extremely nice.)

I also prefer the Canadian cast album--it has a massive orchestra (I think they augmented it to nearly 100--but I'm probably exagerating that,) makes the score listenable by cutting so much of the sung dialogue, and I think the performances on CD are great (Carroll--again for me--strikes a balance between having a better voice than Glen and fitting the role better than Patti--I am sure many would disagree with me.)

In regards to Sondheim's--he mentioned it again in that video interview about Passion I posted in the Passion thread, saying that he was all gung ho until he met Billy Wilder at a party who told him that it must be done as an opera, Sondheim realized he was right but had no interest in doing an opera.

(And you left Love Never Dies off your list of ALW shows that lost money in London--you didn't mention Whistle Down The Wind, which I enjoyed despite myself in London, but it did recoup there after its disastrous American tryout with Prince.)

[jnb9872]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:01am

Sondheim in a cakewalk. His scores display such intelligence, invention and (most importantly) emotional storytelling. His musicals are like Hitchcock's craft infused with Spielberg's sympathy.

Webber is Michael Bay. Garish spectacle and a few tricks repeated ad nauseum to appeal to the masses.

I enjoy listening to Superstar Concept Album, back when it sounded like ALW had something to say and an interesting way to say it. Haven't enjoyed a show of his since.

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:09am

Well I gather that Sondheim is winning so far...

I forgot about Love Never Dies. Music wise the show is one of my favorite musicals. It certainly wasn't perfect but still I don't understand all of the destructive criticism it received.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:29am

"It certainly wasn't perfect but still I don't understand all of the destructive criticism it received."

Probably because it was a sequel that played like the worst aspects of fan-fiction. Pretty much every aspect of each character from Phantom was jettisoned to make the Phantom/Christine "love story" work.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 9:46am

ALW writes nice melody.

The other writes whiny, reedy, anemic fare.

I much prefer ALW.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 10:14am

Sondheim writes musical theatre, Andrew Llloyd Webber writes jingles. Jingles that are repeated for three hours to someone else's lyrics.

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 10:52am

"Sondheim writes musical theatre, Andrew Llloyd Webber writes jingles. Jingles that are repeated for three hours to someone else's lyrics"

Andrew Lloyd Webber is by far my favorite composer, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna trash Sondheim. None of the ALW fans here in my opinion have disrespected Sondheim. Do you feel superior just because of your taste in music?

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 11:11am

Not at all, but that is my opinion of Webber. Updated On: 3/5/13 at 11:11 AM

[newintown]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 11:49am

Some analogies:
Sondheim is Dom Perignon; Lloyd Webber is white zin in a box
Sondheim is beluga; Lloyd Webber is fish sticks
Sondheim is cashmere; Lloyd Webber is rayon
Sondheim is Caciocavallo Podolico; Lloyd Webber is Velveeta
Sondheim is Chanel; Lloyd Webber is the Jaclyn Smith Collection
Sondheim is Waterford; Lloyd Webber is plastic
Sondheim is La Gioconda; Lloyd Webber is a painting of a big-eyed cat on velvet
Sondheim is Frank Lloyd Wright; Lloyd Webber is a pre-fab suburban ranch.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 1:19pm

I should admit, though, that I think JCS (the album and, to a lesser extent, the film) is a fascinating cultural artifact of its time. I like Tim Rice's attitude with the material. It's a fun listen.

Updated On: 3/5/13 at 01:19 PM

[Emma White]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 1:31pm

My personal opinion (AKA the right one, of course): Music wise, they are equal. However, the lyrics to Sondheim shows are 10 times the lyrics to any ALW show - and he writes them himself. This, to me, means a lot.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 1:38pm

It pisses me off that someone had the audacity to disrespect Jaclyn Smith in this thread. Keep it between the over-rated musical theater composer (Sondheim) and the hack (Lloyd Webber) and leave the angelic Ms. Smith out of this!

[newintown]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 1:39pm

Love the woman; hate her clothes.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 1:43pm

LOL...I figured as much!

[newintown]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 1:46pm

Now, if they came in triple-plus sizes...

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 2:00pm

Why exactly should Jaclyn Smith be on this thread...

[Wynbish]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 2:21pm

Because ALW is to K-Mart as Sondheim is to Neiman Marcus

Updated On: 3/5/13 at 02:21 PM

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 2:46pm

I couldn't find Sondheim's...

[Wynbish]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 2:56pm

[Wynbish]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 2:57pm

I couldn't find ALW's...

Updated On: 3/5/13 at 02:57 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 3/5/13 at 2:58pm