Andrew Lloyd Webber Vs. Sondheim

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:12pm

I was searching through threads and was very surprised to see that there wasn't a thread on this subject. I know some of you will say: Why compare such legendary composers? Why not enjoy them both? I do enjoy them both. Sondheim to me is a genius, and I really like some of his shows but to me ALW will always come first.

Of the two which one do you like best?

[kieranbec]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:17pm

Well Sondheim is brilliant without being bat-**** crazy so I'm going to go with him.

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:18pm

I love them both for different reasons.

[CJ N2N]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:24pm

Depends on my mood, really. But I think overall, I prefer Sondheim. His music is so beautiful and challenging. His lyrics have this insane depth. You could probably write a whole book on his lyrics in Into The Woods or Sweeney Todd.

However I'll use the analogy someone else used once. "Gourmet food is great, but some times you just a big mac."

Andrew Lloyd Webber's music is catchy and entertaining, and a lot of his musicals (mainly Phantom) are the reason I got into theater in the first place.

But overall, I must say I enjoy Sondheim.

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:35pm

To me Sondheim is a better lyricist than composer. Andrew Lloyd Webber's Music in general seems more powerful to me and you can actually listen to it without lyrics and be enthralled as well.

[TheGingerBreadMan]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:39pm

These 2 composers are almost incomparable. INTO THE WOODS and PHANTOM happen to be 2 of my favorite shows in the world. I can't even choose one.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:42pm

I love most Sondheim, and enjoy some ALW (some, quite a lot.) The only reason I think people do compare them--as odd as it sounds--is because, really, they're the only theatre composer names post 1970 that many non theatre people would at least recognize as "oh he writes musicals."

[It's a fine life!]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:42pm

I don't think these are two people who can be compared.

[TheGingerBreadMan]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:44pm

I agree with It's a fine life!.... Why compare them when we can just celebrate them?

[Emma White]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 8:46pm

Personally, I prefer Sondheim, but I don't necessarily believe he's "better" than ALW. I just enjoy that music more.

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 9:05pm

I don't think he's "bad" but I find ALW insanely overrated. I feel like most of his shows are comprised of the same 4 melodies repeated constantly over the course of the show.

In MUSIC OF THE NIGHT (a six minute song), the entire composition is the same 6 measures of melody repeated over and over again.

[Emma White]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 9:11pm

^ Agreed.

[TheGingerBreadMan]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 9:11pm

I agree with LYLS - I don't think that he is overrated, but he does repeat melodies too much. I don't mind a repeated melody here and there, but especially with PHANTOM. "Magical Lasso" is the same melody as the beginning of "Angel of Music". There are several more times where this is repeated through the show.

[Emma White]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 9:25pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW5wwi4ahLc

Thoughts?

[TheGingerBreadMan]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 10:07pm

^^

Wow. Some of them I couldn't really hear much similarity, but some were just DAYUM. Especially the "Memory" one.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 10:13pm

One is a musical thief

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 10:27pm

Maybe he didn't know they existed. Happens to a lot of artists, they think they came up with something new when in fact someone had already done it.

I don't know how to love him was not his, it was a pop song which he bought the rights to and Tim changed the lyrics .

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 10:31pm

ALW has a huge classical music background and education. He knew some of them existed. Some I find are stretches--like the often mentioned Pink Floyd one.

"To me Sondheim is a better lyricist than composer. Andrew Lloyd Webber's Music in general seems more powerful to me and you can actually listen to it without lyrics and be enthralled as well. "

I personally find Symphonic Sondheim thrilling. I know others say the same thing--especially back in the 70s he often had critics saying he should only do lyrics, but I actually find my main appeal for his work is in the music, lyrics secondary.

[TheGingerBreadMan]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 10:35pm

All that jazz- That is very interesting, I have never heard that about "I don't know how to love him" before.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 10:49pm

All That Jazz, not quite right. From Wikipedia (but the ALW box set mentions this too for their rarities disc although, oddly, it's not one of the selections.) A lot of the Rice era ALW songs were based on pop songs he wrote with Rice for various performers (and some later ones like Lotta Locomotion from Starlight.)

""I Don't Know How to Love Him" had originally been published with different lyrics in the autumn of 1967, the original title being "Kansas Morning." The melody's main theme has been come under some scrutiny for being non-original, being so similar to a theme from Mendelssohn's violin concerto in E minor. In December 1969 and January 1970, when Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice completed Jesus Christ Superstar, Rice wrote new lyrics to the tune of "Kansas Morning" to provide the solo number for the character of Mary Magdalene (Rice and Webber's agent David Land would purchase the rights to "Kansas Morning" back from Southern Music for 50). "

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 10:58pm

Eric, maybe because he had such vast classical music knowledge, he had tunes in his mind which he didn't recall hearing before. And yes some of Sondheim symphonic music can be powerful, particularly Company and Sweeney.

Also, thanks for the I Don't know how to love him fact. I guess I misunderstood the information or didn't remember correctly, maybe because I found out such a long time ago when I was obsessed with JCS.

[MagicalMusical]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 11:03pm

When Andrew Lloy Webber wrote "Memory", he asked his father if it sounded too close to...I forget the name of the song! But his father replied, "Son, that song sounds like a million bucks!" Maybe it was the same song that video said it sounded like.

All that jazz, I agree with you that I find Andrew Lloyd Webber's music, his melodies, to often be more beautiful and powerful to me than Sondheim's, and I wish Sondheim would write more beautiful music like that, but sometimes Sondheim surprises me with particularly beautiful music, at least certain parts. Like you said, especially Company and Sweeney! Updated On: 3/3/13 at 11:03 PM

[all that jazz]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 11:12pm

Thanks for the info, that's a very interesting fact.

It seems we have very similar opinions regarding the subject.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/3/13 at 11:16pm

"Eric, maybe because he had such vast classical music knowledge, he had tunes in his mind which he didn't recall hearing before."

I do think that's at least somewhat the case--and because of who ALW is (and I admit, a lot of things he does annoy the Hell out of me) people unfairly, to some degree, carp on it. He obviously does have a huge love for Puccini, in particular (he's admitted as much) and I do get the similarities though often more in a broad way.

But yeah, it happens to everyone--I doubt Sondheim spent much time listening to the Willy Wonka score, but many have pointed out how No One Is Alone has a few bars that sound just like The Candyman. It's hard to avoid. That's why I think some of ALW's are not done on purpose, or are coincidental (like the Pink Floyd.) Some others I think do hold more weight.

My main gripe with Andy is that I wish he would work with stronger collaborators. At this stage of the gamehe likes, and has the power, to control everything. So even if he worked with a decent lyricist, he still gets final say and they don't get to show off their best work (and more often than not he seems to like to work with lyricists who aren't too experience and he can dominate.)

I also think he has a very theatrical mind--he comes up with ideas that are inately theatrical, but more and more he doesn't then let people--like Hal Prince--come in and take over, when I think he should. Sondheim doesn't always pick, IMHO, the ideal collaborators. but from all accounts he is VERY collaborative with his book writers and directors, and willing to, well, collaborate equally.

As for the music--it's a personal thing I guess. I admit I like a lot of ALW music-wise (though I often prefer the highlights albums because I do think his use of repeating melodies (like Shoenberg's though perhaps worse) can get tedious when not watching the show, but it's *mostly* the definition of accessible. That's probably one reason so much sounds familiar. Sondheim's is less so (although, it's interesting that many of his older scores that critics were confused by, now sound classic and extremely melodic compared to the "post Sondheim" composers like LaChiusa or Guettel.)

Sondheim is mostly pretty careful about not criticizing or giving his opinion about still living composers and lyricists--something I appreciate him being. But I think he has a point when he says that the UK megamusical style of "through composed" musicals aren't really through composed in the classical sense. Themes don't so much get developed and expanded and interconnected, as simply repeated, and sometimes this does come off as lazy (ie when for some sung dialogue they just use bits of melody from the last few songs even though it has no connection to that character or what they're singing about.)

I prefer Sondheim--his music overall moves me more than ALW. But if I wanna put on an easy listen in the background I'd prob pick an ALW score. Anyway--apples and oranges as most here have said.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 3/4/13 at 12:34am

I find Sondheim puts more thought and effort into determining how and when to use music to explore character. Lloyd Webber just seems to arbitrarily plug a big number in for the sake of having it heard. With the possible exception of BOUNCE/ROAD SHOW, when SS decides that a particular story is worth exploring I know he will communicate the reason behind his choice of subject matter. NONE of his shows have disappointed me the way many ALW shows have. I appreciated the spectacle of CATS but not the music or the text. I found STARLIGHT EXPRESS to be a noisy and pointless show. The storytelling of PHANTOM OF THE OPERA is so muddled taht even teh show's fans have to manufacture reasons for liking it (claiming they identify with Erik's loneliness and isolation. That's a good concept but it isn't what Lloyd Webber and company have written.) ASPECTS OF LOVE was an excruciating bore despite some beautiful melodies ... and SUNSET BLVD remains one of the worst musicals I have ever seen compounded by a bored and obviously unhappy leading lady (Diahann Carroll) and male lead (Rex Smith) overacting to ridiculous lengths to counteract his sleepwalking co-star. Moreover the composer's laziness in not creating a new and original score organic to the story results in a wildly uneven series of songs (trunk songs recycled from god-knows-where) outfitted with sloppy and ill-fitting lyrics. The songs merely recap what has already been covered in the text and the songs add nothing of value.

His "new" songs for THE WIZARD OF OZ are horrible. There is no attempt to integrate the songs with the already existing score - and why did he set himself up for comparison with the great Harold Arlen? If he wanted to write a score for OZ why not go back to the book and write a new and original musical based on it? This mishmash that tries too hard to duplicate the movie experience on stage underscores all that is wrong with the modern musical theatre and with audiences who flock to see this and shows like DIRTY DANCING expecting to see the movie faithfully re-created on stage.

It led me to the belief that ALW doesn't care about theatre or the live theatre experience, just making money. The creative spark exhibited in EVITA has long ago died.

If he would work with a strong producer who would not let this sloppiness pass the shows might be better, but he produces the shows himself and he thinks they are "swell."

Not so swell for the audiences.