CAROUSEL at the Lyric Opera in Chicago- Page 14

[kristinj1]

Posted: 4/29/15 at 8:01pm

It may also be worth mentioning that the verbal and emotional abuse many people have received at the hands of parents, siblings, spouses, friends, coworkers, teachers, etc. can be every bit as damaging - and often even more confusing - than an actual slap.  Based on the number of people around me who were visibly sobbing during this production I have to think that the show still touches a nerve for many, as I know it did for me.

We disappoint, we disappear, we die but we don't.

 

And yes, the show and this production both have flaws, but I haven't seen much on Broadway or the West End in recent years that moved me in the way this production did, so many thanks to all who were involved!

 

Updated On: 4/30/15 at 08:01 PM

[JustBe23]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 12:48pm

"This is most likely NOT going to Broadway anytime soon for various reasons---  
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2015/04/28/lyric-operas-carousel-still-waiting-for-that-big.html
  
 "

 It... doesn't say that. All it says is that the production isn't totally funded yet. How often is a show fully funded for a Broadway transfer immediately following its out of town?

[daisybeetle]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 1:14pm

The article also says---

This "Carousel," with a cast of 60, was scaled to fit a huge opera house much larger than even the biggest of Broadway theaters in New York City. The show would need to be reconceived on a somewhat smaller scale to make a Broadway transfer viable from both an artistic and a financial standpoint.

To me, this means not anytime soon. I didn't say never.

 

 

 

 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 2:04pm

The show would need to be reconceived to make a Broadway transfer viable from both an artistic and a financial standpoint.

There.  Fixed it!

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 2:18pm

""This is most likely NOT going to Broadway anytime soon for various reasons---  
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2015/04/28/lyric-operas-carousel-still-waiting-for-that-big.html
  
 "
 It... doesn't say that. All it says is that the production isn't totally funded yet. How often is a show fully funded for a Broadway transfer immediately following its out of town?"

 From the article:

"Still, sources said no firm offers to transfer the show to Broadway have yet materialized."

That doesn't sound like it's only partially funded, it sounds like nobody with the money has come forward.

 

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 4:47pm

My issue is not needing Billy to “get what he deserves,” or for everything to work out, or for it to be a neat and clean ending. Not at all. I take issue with the fact that I don’t see much real exploration into this relationship, I don’t see exploration into why Julie stays with him (or falls for him in the first place), I don’t see exploration into Billy’s psyche. And, because of all of this, the final moments come off, at least to me and those I’ve spoken with, as Julie dismissing Billy’s treatment of her simply because she knows he “didn’t mean it.”

Without telling her how I felt about the show, I spoke to another one of my friends who saw this production (who went on a different night) and asked her how her and the two others she went with reacted to Julie’s hit/kiss line and what message they thought the show ended on. She said her and her fellow theatre-goers had spoken about this after the show and they all had the same reaction as me and my party. I then told her about the thoughts on here (the ones different from my own thoughts and feelings) that have been presented regarding the line and ending, specifically, as well as Julie and Billy’s relationship throughout the whole show. I asked her what she thought about those and she said she couldn’t see that and doesn’t think those are the messages of the show.

I appreciate these discussions and reactions and analysis, but there are a large group of people that won’t speak to others with these thoughts or insights and who will only go off of what is presented onstage and, if they have the same reaction as me (and, I’m inclined to believe there will be a good amount of people who do), then the message they believe the show is portraying is, to me, potentially harmful. Especially when presented in such a romantic setting.

I don’t doubt that everything everyone is saying is what the writers were intending to explore. I don’t doubt that the writers were never endorsing domestic violence (and I don’t think the show comes off as endorsing it). But, I do think the execution of the show doesn’t achieve what they set out to. And, based off of what is presented in the script, I do think the show comes off as giving excuse to a person’s actions without any basis or deep explorations into that character’s psyche. I felt forced to take the show at surface level, because I never saw anything deeper presented. I could, in my mind, make up possible reasons why the characters people did the things they did or what things meant. But, for me, the show doesn’t go deep enough to actually base any of further thoughts off of anything concrete.

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 5:11pm

"""This is most likely NOT going to Broadway anytime soon for various reasons---  
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2015/04/28/lyric-operas-carousel-still-waiting-for-that-big.html
  
 "
 It... doesn't say that. All it says is that the production isn't totally funded yet. How often is a show fully funded for a Broadway transfer immediately following its out of town?"
 From the article:
"Still, sources said no firm offers to transfer the show to Broadway have yet materialized."
That doesn't sound like it's only partially funded, it sounds like nobody with the money has come forward.
 "

 But, Phillypinto said a friend of a friend told his friend it was definitely transferring this fall. As we all know, he never lies, he never fabricates information, he only looks at the facts and presents us with information based on logic and existing evidence. How could it possibly be that there aren't any firm offers to transfer the show to Broadway?

On a serious note, this is a very pretty production, but nothing about it (aside from some of the cast) screamed I belong on Broadway.  Seeing it was nice, but it isn't something I would pay Broadway prices to see again. If it does get picked up for the fall of 2016, then I wish it well. If it doesn't get picked up, then I really don't think it is a great loss.

[Steve721]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 5:29pm

"My issue is not needing Billy to “get what he deserves,” or for everything to work out, or for it to be a neat and clean ending. Not at all. I take issue with the fact that I don’t see much real exploration into this relationship, I don’t see exploration into why Julie stays with him (or falls for him in the first place), I don’t see exploration into Billy’s psyche. And, because of all of this, the final moments come off, at least to me and those I’ve spoken with, as Julie dismissing Billy’s treatment of her simply because she knows he “didn’t mean it.""

Why does Julie fall for Billy in the first place?  That's made crystal clear in one of the finest love songs ever written for a Broadway musical; from the lyrics of "If I Loved You", it's obvious that from their first meeting, the attraction is so strong that they're completely infatuated with each other, to the point that they cannot help but envision what it would be like to be in love.  It's a classic case of a girl falling hard for the wrong guy even though she knows it will probably not end well--Julie is immature, has very little experience with men and chooses badly.  As to why Julie stays with Billy, they're only together for a few months before he dies, and this was at a time when divorces were almost impossible to get.  We don't know how their relationship would have developed if Billy had lived; perhaps Julie would have left him eventually, but she never has to face the issue because he dies even before her child is born.  

In terms of Billy's pysche, we know that he has a temper, is unable to control his impulses, and is basically immature.  The Soliloquy is an emotional roller coaster from a man who has these stereotypical, poorly conceived fantasies of what it would be like to raise a child.  The fantasies of adequately providing for his child lead Billy to impulsively joins Jigger's hare-brained robbery scheme, where he ends up killing himself on the spur of the moment rather than face the consequences.  I don't think Billy is evil, but he definitely has a problem with impulse control, and his hitting Julie is part of that.

    

Updated On: 4/30/15 at 05:29 PM

[kristinj1]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 10:29pm

Let me start off by saying that I totally understand not connecting with a show, as I've recently seen dozens of productions which evoked little or no feeling from me.  It is absolutely true that not all stories speak to all people.

 

[quote]I don’t see exploration into Billy’s psyche. [/quote]

Since the Starkeeper said Billy's daughter was a lot like him, I experienced the entire 20 minute dream ballet, in addition to the 7 minute Soliloquy and If I loved You, as explorations into Billy's psyche.  

 

[quote] And, because of all of this, the final moments come off, at least to me and those I’ve spoken with, as Julie dismissing Billy’s treatment of her simply because she knows he “didn’t mean it.”[/quote]

In my personal experience after the death of loved ones with whom I had unresolved issues -- and I've seen similar things with friends recovering from the suicide of a spouse -- I found it very cathartic and healing to be able to genuinely forgive the offender, and that is what I felt in Julie's choices.  I also think forgiving Billy was critical to being able to forgive herself for the situation she'd put herself and her fatherless daughter in.

Again, I completely understand not connecting with a theatre piece, so no worries at all about having a different experience with it, and I don't doubt that you're in good company!

Updated On: 5/1/15 at 10:29 PM

[romain2]

Posted: 4/30/15 at 11:44pm

kristinj:

I don't think Carousel endorses domestic violence, or that Rent promotes heroine addiction, or that Spring Awakening endorses teen suicide, or that Sweeney Todd promotes cannibalism, or that South Pacific promotes racism.  I think the show explores ending cycles of abuse through the obviously-flawed tragic anti-hero of Billy.  Julie's line about it being possible for a hit to feel like a kiss needs to be overheard by Billy in order for him to finally see firsthand how badly he warped those he loved and to motivate him to try to make amends from beyond the grave.

Thank you!!!  That's exactly what I was going to write, and you say it so eloquently.  I've been reading this conversation and although I understand people's concerns about the topic--in no way does the show condone Billy's behavior.  In fact, he suffers for his violent outbursts, the show is a cautionary tale about hurting the ones you love.  It's about the male ego (he slaps her because he knows "she is right") and depicts a troubling milieu where men behave badly.  It's at the end he realizes what he has lost and what his behavior has done to his wife and daughter (warping them).  And in the dream ballet, when he sees his daughter being treated the way he treated his wife, repeating the cycle of abuse and degradation, it breaks his heart and he knows he needs to put things right (although in a bittersweet ending we still wonder if she will be happy with Junior).  All I know is when Billy and Julie see each other at the end one last time, I still pretty much lost it.  This could have been a good relationship if Billy had been a better man--he knows it and she knows it.  That's what makes it a strong piece--if it were a rosy relationship, there would be no show. 

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 5/1/15 at 1:01pm

I really do appreciate all of this discussion, hearing others’ interpretations and what different moments mean to everyone. It’s definitely widened my thought process on the intentions behind what is written. And, I certainly don’t think the show should stop being performed because, clearly, there are some that are getting more from it than I.

My concern, though, is for all of those that have the same reactions as I based off of simply what we hear and see on the stage. Most will not be afforded the insights offered on here (which, for me, help me understand what I think the musical was trying to do, but I still don’t see the motivation or exploration within the written script the way that others do). So, there is at least a portion of the audience who thinks the musical comes off in the way that me and my fellow theatre-goers received it and that is my concern and issue with the script, as I think it’s a potentially harmful message that audience members may take away from the show.

[Broadwaywest]

Posted: 5/1/15 at 1:14pm

End of Solilqouy. WOW!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x_jh2_9CFk

[Steve721]

Posted: 5/1/15 at 1:40pm

"I really do appreciate all of this discussion, hearing others’ interpretations and what different moments mean to everyone. It’s definitely widened my thought process on the intentions behind what is written. And, I certainly don’t think the show should stop being performed because, clearly, there are some that are getting more from it than I.
My concern, though, is for all of those that have the same reactions as I based off of simply what we hear and see on the stage. Most will not be afforded the insights offered on here (which, for me, help me understand what I think the musical was trying to do, but I still don’t see the motivation or exploration within the written script the way that others do). So, there is at least a portion of the audience who thinks the musical comes off in the way that me and my fellow theatre-goers received it and that is my concern and issue with the script, as I think it’s a potentially harmful message that audience members may take away from the show."

So are you proposing that producers and theater companies just stop reviving Carousel because of its "potentially harmful message"?

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 5/1/15 at 2:08pm

So are you proposing that producers and theater companies just stop reviving Carousel because of its "potentially harmful message"?

As I stated in the message you quoted, no, I don’t think the show should stop being performed. I do think that, when it is being staged, extra care needs to be taken to be able to combat this potential reaction from audience members and make sure that what comes off to the audience is what is intended. Truthfully, I think this is a tall task without blatantly changing the script (which, of course, is out of the question unless the book is revised), so I don’t know what the answer is. Perhaps there is some staging that can help to bring out the story that others on here see within the script. Perhaps by a production somehow making a clear commentary on the script and how it may be perceived by some. I just think that, because of the bones of the script, there is going to be a portion of the audience that sees this harmful message as the message of the show, so if a theatre or producer decides to do this show, they need to tread very carefully and be extremely conscious of this. Lyric’s production, from my viewpoint, did not succeed in this respect.

Updated On: 5/1/15 at 02:08 PM

[romain2]

Posted: 5/1/15 at 2:16pm

My concern, though, is for all of those that have the same reactions as I based off of simply what we hear and see on the stage. Most will not be afforded the insights offered on here (which, for me, help me understand what I think the musical was trying to do, but I still don’t see the motivation or exploration within the written script the way that others do). So, there is at least a portion of the audience who thinks the musical comes off in the way that me and my fellow theatre-goers received it and that is my concern and issue with the script, as I think it’s a potentially harmful message that audience members may take away from the show.

Actually, the potentially harmful message is the very reason the show should be performed.  Art should be troubling.  Art should provoke.  And who decides what is potentially harmful?  Carousel was one of the most thrilling productions I have seen in a while.  If it had not been produced because someone said "nope, sorry, too controversial, some people might walk away with the wrong idea," that would be unfair.  And seriously, if you think about any great work (as someone said earlier in this thread), there is always some troubling aspect:  do we stop performing Romeo & Juliet (teen suicide), Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (alcoholism, verbal spousal abuse), Little Shop of Horrors (abuse, murder), Next to Normal (some folks are troubled by its depiction of mental illness), Assassins (violence often played for laughs), Avenue Q (puppet death played for laughs), and so on?  I don't mean to come off as combative, and I understand your concerns, but I'm of the mind that if we lose Carousel, we lose the show has Soliloquy, If I Loved You, You Never Walk Alone, and one that offers a story that crawls under your skin because it gives you a far from perfect relationship at its core.  Thanks for listening.

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 5/1/15 at 2:48pm

I apologize if I’m not being clear, because it seems people are having a hard time understanding my view on this. I absolutely think controversial topics should be discussed and presented in art – my favorite theatre pieces are the ones that are challenging and discuss and explore subjects that are otherwise shied away from. And, no, I don’t think that if a show is discussing a difficult topic like domestic violence that, for example, we have to see the victim of the abuse come out on top or everyone gets “what they deserve” in the end or anything of that nature.

I’m reminded of the movie “Blue Valentine,” which I absolutely loved. That is certainly an abusive, complicated, heartbreaking relationship in many shapes and forms, but I think that shows all the ins and outs and depths and trials and tribulations  of such a relationship and what you want for the characters and what you know might be right aren’t always the same thing. And, you understand the reasons behind why they are doing what they are doing, even if you don’t agree with it and even if it isn’t representing a great relationship. I don’t think the relationship presented in “Blue Valentine” shies away from anything, but I think is a really wonderful and truthful exploration into a complicated and harmful relationship. I don’t get any of that from the script of “Carousel.”

For me, “Carousel” at least as presented at the Lyric, felt, to me, like what that production was saying was that Julie’s line is ultimately giving an understanding to Billy’s actions that doesn’t make his abuse right, but excusable. I felt like they gave that moment and the entire ending a romanticism to the proceedings. And it’s <i>that</i> that I find as a potentially harmful message. Explore these topics, yes. Present difficult stories that don’t have happy endings and where people make bad decisions, which is much more true to real life than not, yes. But, when it feels like the staging of the production is trying to idealize a very complicated and unhealthy relationship, that’s my concern.

And, that’s where I feel like productions of this show need to tread carefully and make sure to avoid this message coming off. I think that’s hard to do, because I don’t think the script allows for the true intentions (assuming the true intentions are those of what others on here are relaying) of the piece to come off, but I think that, for me, the Lyric production definitely didn’t succeed in that.

I hope that clears up a bit what my thoughts are. Censorship and happy endings are not what I’m after, at all.

[kristinj1]

Posted: 5/1/15 at 3:56pm

@GilmoreGirlO2 - It seems that maybe the root of the issue is simply that, for whatever reason, Carousel didn't speak to you or your friends, while Lyric's production moved some others here deeply.  Maybe it's a function of personal background, the specific performance you saw, your mood the night you saw it, familiarity with the show... who knows?  I've certainly had that same experience with many other shows people love, and recently saw a different production of Carousel in another state that in my opinion missed on virtually every level.

Sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't.  No worries!

Updated On: 5/1/15 at 03:56 PM

[romain2]

Posted: 5/1/15 at 5:17pm

I hope that clears up a bit what my thoughts are. Censorship and happy endings are not what I’m after, at all.

It totally does.  Sorry that it took me a while to fully digest what you were saying, thanks!

[kristinj1]

Posted: 5/2/15 at 3:22pm

Just noticed that the radio broadcast will be repeated in June in case anyone missed it.  I think the show is closing this weekend.

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Laura-Osnes-Steven-Pasquale-Led-CAROUSEL-Among-Lyric-Opera-of-Chicagos-2014-15-Radio-Broadcasts-20150501

 

Updated On: 5/2/15 at 03:22 PM

[gleek4114]

Posted: 5/2/15 at 3:42pm

"Beginning on Saturday, May 16, and continuing every Saturday through July 11, The Lyric Opera Broadcasts of the 2014-15 Lyric Opera of Chicago season will be rebroadcast internationally by The WFMT Radio Network and heard locally on 98.7WFMT. They may also be streamed on WFMT.com."

 

It's actually every Saturday night starting May 16th through July 11th.

[kristinj1]

Posted: 5/2/15 at 3:56pm

If I'm reading the article correctly, Carousel will only be broadcast once, on June 13th (or 6th... I can't quite tell).  I think the other broadcasts are different Lyric shows.

[kristinj1]

Posted: 5/2/15 at 5:01pm

"For me, “Carousel” at least as presented at the Lyric, felt, to me, like what that production was saying was that Julie’s line is ultimately giving an understanding to Billy’s actions that doesn’t make his abuse right, but excusable. I felt like they gave that moment and the entire ending a romanticism to the proceedings. And it’s that that I find as a potentially harmful message. Explore these topics, yes. Present difficult stories that don’t have happy endings and where people make bad decisions, which is much more true to real life than not, yes. But, when it feels like the staging of the production is trying to idealize a very complicated and unhealthy relationship, that’s my concern."

 

I thought more about your comments, and realized it still feels like what you would want is for the show to tell a different story.  Many tragic love stories similar to Carousel explore the fact that two people can, in fact, love each other deeply in spite of all manner of serious tragic (and in Billy's case fatal) flaws.  Billy is a mess (in Steven Pasquale's case a HOT mess) yet Julie loves him and forgives him for his failings and his temper, both before and after his death.  Her forgiveness is not an error in this production - it's key to the tragic and beautiful story.  

Even if you personally wouldn't choose to stay with, or wish for your kids to stay with, a partner who is impulsive, a heroine addict, a polygamist, who travels the world prosthelytizing, who has a gambling addiction, who has a serious mental illness, who has a physical deformity or numerous other characteristics you might find off-putting, you still might be moved by musicals or plays that beautifully share such complex and sometimes even confusing love stories.

One of the finest things about theatre is that it enables us all to walk for a couple hours in someone else's footsteps.  And whether our society is currently comfortable facing it or not, there are people among us who choose to or need to endure difficult relationships, and many of them are happily able to move forward into solid social connection in spite of that history, which is what Carousel is about.

I'm a bit sad to think of this production ending, but am so glad we were able to make it to Chicago to see it!

Updated On: 5/3/15 at 05:01 PM

[asmith0307]

Posted: 5/3/15 at 1:15am

"End of Solilqouy. WOW!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x_jh2_9CFk"

 

Uh, yep. It's amazing to hear live. I saw it yesterday and I was honestly surprised that he did not get a standing ovation mid-show (and I rarely stand at the end myself, so that's saying something). I know some people here aren't interested in it transferring, but there is a whole rising generation who is not familiar with this score since it is so rarely revived (to put it in perspective - those who were born when it was done with Audra are now 21). And if anyone can interest them, it's Laura and Steven.

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 5/3/15 at 8:44am

I saw it Friday night and Steven was out with a sinus infection.  I guess he recovered for Saturday's shows ?    They even announced that the understudy had a cold.   So the understudy struggled with many of the high notes. 

[asmith0307]

Posted: 5/3/15 at 12:39pm

"I saw it Friday night and Steven was out with a sinus infection.  I guess he recovered for Saturday's shows ?    They even announced that the understudy had a cold.   So the understudy struggled with many of the high notes. "

 

He must have. If you hadn't told me he was out the day before, I would not have guessed it.