Christina Applegate vs. John Lithgow (just hear me out)- Page 2

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 4:20pm

But lets not forget - Christina is quite a fantastic actress. She has won an Emmy, nominated for a Golden Globe and a number of other awards. And whey Cy Coleman and the rest of the creative team - heard Christina read the book scenes of Charity for the first time,
they were blown away.


and some great points - Justme! Updated On: 8/4/05 at 04:20 PM

[Plum]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:06pm

Well, even if you accept the slightly ridiculous notion that Lithgow and Applegate were on equal footing to being with, their situations were different. Lithgow was originating his role and therefore couldn't be compared to anyone, while Applegate was taking on a role that has gone to some of the most accomplished dancers in Broadway history. Naturally people would be more suspicious of a TV actress trying to fill those heels than they would be of someone originating a role.

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:10pm

Well the TV actress trained in dance until her 20's. But no one likes to realize that. Ofcourse she isn't on the level of Verdon. but damn it, she is just fine in the role. No one can sit there say Paula Abdul, Marisa Tomei, or Jenna Elfman would've been better in the role!

[Plum]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:13pm

I'm not saying she's bad. I'm just trying to explain the mindset that might have caused people to have a different reaction to her casting than to Lithgow's. It wasn't about comparisons to Jenna Elfman, it was about comparisons to Gwen Verdon.

[WonderBoy]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:15pm

I'm so not dissing on Miss Applegate but "training" in dance and taking a few dance classes here and there are two very different things. I don't buy that she is a well trained dancer. Once again, I'm not trying to cause a commotion.

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:17pm

Wonder. She claims she was consistent in dance training until her 20's. I honestly doubt she makes this stuff up. But oh well - I don't feel like finding all the articles that state this.

[WonderBoy]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:20pm

Like I said, I don't want to create an argument but anyone with a trained eye can look at her and tell that she was not a seriously trained dancer, especially into her twenties.

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:28pm

"My childhood was very creative," recalls Applegate. "From the get-go, I was in dance classes and acting classes and singing, lessons and in plays and singing and acting with my mom. She had me in every sort of extracurricular activity she could to enhance my creativity, which was very important to her."

"I would love to have done 'Chicago,' I actually tried out for 'Chicago,' Having been a dancer my whole life, that's my little secret dream to be able to act and dance and sing. Maybe I'll just do it on stage. I would love to go to New York and do 'Cabaret' or anything. I'm obsessed with Bob Fosse. I'd love to just do Fosse anywhere."
qoutes from..
http://www.christina-applegate.net/articles/valley.htm

But anyway - she isn't claiming to be Gwen Verdon. I just don't understand the need to bash her dancing skills, blame it on her dance teachers. But anyway - she's the one who made it on Broadway and the one with a Tony Nom, Golden Globe Nom, and an Emmy.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:28pm

I agree Wonder Boy. While Applegate has some dancing ability, she clearly lacks the technique and polish of a D'Amboise, Reinking, Neuwirth, Allen, Ziemba or dozens of dancers working on Broadway today who have been training hours a day, seven days a week for decades, but lack the fame that comes with sitcom stardom, so will never be offered the lead role in a show like Charity.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:38pm

No one has answered my earlier question:

Why is Christina Applegate reviled while Brooke Shields gets a pass?

Because Applegate originated the role in this revival while Brooke was a celebrity replacement?

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 05:38 PM

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:44pm

bellacantato- I was not a fan of Ms. Applegates while she was on "Married With Children". Didn't like her or the show. In May I saw Both Mr. Lithgow and Ms. Applegate in their respective shows. Ms. Applegate stole my heart. A wonderful performance that I feel was worthy of a Tony nomination. And I went into the show a skeptic but with an open mind (Because of all the drama surronding the productin). I suggest you see the show before comparing her to anybody. I am not impressed with the clips that I have seen and heard from a certain blockbuter show that is now on tour, but I will wait to see it when it comes to Denver before I form an opinion. I don't think it is fair to judge an entire performance from video and sound clips. I have done that before and have actually missed a good show or two because I did so. I agree with people here that these two actors are not in the same league. But of the 2 performances. I did enjoy hers more than Mr. Lithgow's. But that doesn't mean his performance was bad. I actually enjoyed Sweet Charity as a whole more than DRS as a whole. Just my opinion.

[justme2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:47pm

Master ClZ,

I think it's the opposite...Applegate is reviled because she fails to be a replica of Gwen Verdon. Applegate didn't really originate this role, and those lucky enough to have seen Verdon will never accept Applegate. Even tose who merely heard of Verdon in this role will never accept her. It's sad, because she really is good in the role.

I can't speak about Brooke's talents, as I've never seen her in any dancing role.

[keggss23]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:50pm

bella - Perhaps you should have done your research BEFORE blowing Lithgow off as a "tv actor" and maybe you should actually see Christina in the role before making your judgment.

[Hanna from Hamburg]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:55pm

I'd feel different if it was, say, Pamela Anderson waking up one day and deciding that she wants to star in a Broadway musical. But Christina has been gearing herself for broadway from the time she was a child. TV success at a VERY young age probably got in the way of that goal. Maybe if she hit broadway instead of FOX she'd be in a different position in her Broadway career. I still give her credit for giving her all to see that SC got revived . . . no matter what you think of the revival, the girls got drive and determination.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:55pm

I don't know if Shields gets a pass completely. I remember a lot of snickering from Broadway people about her when she came in to replace in Grease (her Broadway debut). But, after a few shows, she's paid some dues now showing that she's not some out-of-work faded tv/film actress slumming for a job, but someone who is clearly dedicated to theatre and obviously cares a lot about the community. After getting raves for Wonderful Town and Chicago in London, she's earned at least a grudging respect from even her most ardent detractors.

Applegate hasn't paid those same kind of dues (though she was certainly a trouper to perform with a broken foot in order for the show to open) so she's going to be greeted with the same sort of suspicion that Shields was with her first Broadway show.

And look, it's unavoidable that there's going to be some resentment in the Broadway community when someone with zero stage experience is given the lead role in a Broadway show, when so many others out there spend years sacrificing and working hard and paying dues and yet are never given the opportunity for lead roles because they don't have a sitcom on their resume. Applegate has some talent, but there are several dozen triple threats out there who are far better singer/dancer/actors than she is, but lack the fame to ever be cast in that role.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 6:29pm

"...so many others out there spend years sacrificing and working hard and paying dues and yet are never given the opportunity for lead roles because they don't have a sitcom on their resume."

Yeah, but look what happened with NEVER GONNA DANCE. The producers took some real chances by casting the leads with brilliantly trained "unknowns". As long as they were dancing, Noah Racey & Nancy Lemenger were magical, yet once they stopped, they vanished into the scenery. They demonstrated that you need charm and a certain indefinable stage presence to sock you over - even on Broadway, sheer talent isn't enough. If it weren't for Karen Ziemba taking the stage in "Shimmy With Me" to show those yunguns how it's done (and stealing the show in the process) the evening would have been a total wash. After the failure of DANCE, I don't see any producer taking similar risks with a starring role - they're going to go with ANYONE with a modicum of name recognition before taking a chance with another talented unknown. And even though Ziemba stole NEVER GONNA DANCE, she unfortunately isn't a big enough 'name' to sell SWEET CHARITY to investors (though I'd love to see what she'd do in the part).

(To be fair to Racey, his stage precence has much improved - he just needs to find a role that doesn't cast him as a 1930s Astaire-wanna be)

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 06:29 PM

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 8:00pm

Christina dosen't have zero stage experience.

She has performed in Regional/Community Theatre. I can't tell you what age she was. But she has DEFINITELY performed on the stage before.

-The Grass Harp
-The Third Day
-The Axeman's Jazz
-Nobody Leaves Empty Handed
-The Runthrough Updated On: 8/4/05 at 08:00 PM

[Jon]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 11:26pm

Ziemba as Charity would have been interesting. Better yet, Ziemba as Ruth in WONDERFUL TOWN. At least she would have shown up every night!

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 11:37pm

On stage, she has appeared in "The Third Day," co-starring Gena Rowlands and directed by John Cassavetes. Additional theater credits include roles in "The Axeman's Jazz," "Nobody Leaves Empty Handed" and "The Runthrough."

An accomplished dancer, Applegate has studied numerous varieties of jazz dance and, when not working, dances between 15 and 20 hours per week.

--- From a Christina Bio. Gives a little more info on her previous stage work, and dance experience.

[JMVR]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 11:57pm

While I realize that a lot of people who have beautiful voices and have spent years training in singing, dancing and acting, it seems to me that this talented group is divided into two camps: the ones who just want to work on Broadway and spend more time enjoying what they do and those who spend their time being resentful of "famous" performes who end up in Broadway leads.

To those in the latter camp, I say "let it go". NO matter how much you diss Applegate, Lithgow, Shields, et al, you will still not get a lead in a multimillion dollar musical on Broadway UNTIL YOUR NAME SELLS TICKETS. It doesn't matter if you could outcharm Applegate, outsuave Lithgow or outglamour Brooke, if you can't sell tickets and they can, it is not their fault that you resent them, it is your fault for turning to the commercial theater to find justice, appreciation and opportunities for the most talented. It is a business, after all. Let's be honest here, there's only so much money the most artistic producer will be willing to lose and so many flops an artful director will participate in. Sorry about this rant, but I just had to say it. Also, is it really bad for you actors if having a famous lead will keep you working longer?

Some guy are gorgeous, may sing like the angels and dance with grace and sophisitcation, not to mention how well they can act. But even all that talent needs a paycheck and if the average theatergoing paying public (not fans like us) are not willing to pay big bucks to see them, it's not the celebrities' fault.
Maybe you'd fare better in shows that don't depend on names, shows that sell because of the name of the show itself.

About this particular post, I think Lithgow's contribution to DRS is overshadowed by Butz having the flashiest part. But let's not forget that without Lithgow's suave, aloof and instantly likeable portrayal of the character, Butz would not look so vulgar, energetic and outrageous in his part, which is what makes us laugh our asses off when he comes on singing Great Big Stuff, etc. I think he is brilliant. Christina of course got more negative press maybe beacuse she was the sole focus of the show and the supporting parts are somewhat smallish when compared to, for example DRS which has three leading characters and two strong supporting characters and WT which has a very big part for Eileen and a fairly big part for Bob, plus all the others who also get their songs. Charity is really all about whoever is in the lead.

Sorry if I unpset some people but I just needed to post this.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 11:57pm

Not only has John Lithgow been a stage actor for decades, but he won the Tony Award for Best Actor in a Musical for "Sweet Smell of Success" just a few years ago. In his acceptance speech, he said something to the effect that he was really touched by the award because he was nominated with 4 other men who could sing and dance much better than he. (He's always gracious and humble on these occasions, I've noticed.) So, even though there are legitimate reasons for questioning the true value of awards in general, one must admit that getting the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical does give Mr. Lithgow some credibility as a musical theater performer.

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/5/05 at 12:00am

Great points, JMRV.

Thanks to Brooke - she kept that VERY VERY VERY talented cast of WT in work for months longer.

And Thanks to Christina. She got the jobs back of an amazing cast.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 8/5/05 at 12:44am

And another thing about TV stars on Broadway...

Like it or not, they do bring people into the theatre. People who may never consider a particular show or even consider seeing ANY show on Broadway may go just because of the "TV Star Casting." I say, if it gets more people attending the theatre, it's worthwhile. Sometimes, it's a person's first introduction to theatre and then they start seeing more and more shows...even shows WITHOUT TV stars! So let's not write off "TV Star Appeal" completely. Sure, there are many theatre actors who never get the breaks they deserve, and that's unfortunate, but that's life--for all of us--you know?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 8/5/05 at 1:40am

Look, I'm not trying to open up a can of worms or bash Applegate, but millions of people out there take hours and hours of dance classes every week in every town, large and small, in this country and around the world. And despite all the classes and all the training, perhaps .000001% of them ever have and develop the gift and accomplishment of a Verdon, Rivera, Reinking, Neuwirth, Debbie Allen, Donna McKechnie, Helen Gallagher, Juliet Prowse, D'Amboise and a few others. It'san extremely unique gift that, even with thousands of hours of training over decades, just doesn't come along very often.

Charity is one of the most elite dance roles in all of musical theatre. Only the greatest of the great have ever tackled it on Broadway or on major national tours -- until now. It's a killer role that taxed even the legendary stamina of Gwen Verdon. And even with the much simplified choreography of Wayne Cilento, Applegate clearly demonstrated that she wasn't remotely in the elite company of the ladies who have made their names and reputations in this role in the last 39 years. I mean that as no insult whatsoever to her -- she's absolutely CHARMING in the role, but the show (which is heavily flawed and obviously doesn't have the strongest book) only really works at ALL when there's a stunningly talented virtuoso at its center to help smooth over the weaknesses and make you forget that, at its core, this isn't really a great show. It's a vehicle for a GREAT dancer and comedienne and while Applegate scores occasionally as the latter, she simply doesn't have the brilliance to pull off the former. Yes, she tries hard, but the truly great dancers never let you see that.

I wasn't around for Verdon (though I have seen clips of her from the Ed Sullivan Show which were amazing), but I did see Allen and Reinking, as well as Maclaine in the movie. In each, there was an electricity and effortless panache that went even beyond pure technique (which was formidable) even when they simply walked across the stage, let alone when they exploded in dance. I'm sorry, but THAT'S what I EXPECT when I see someone do the role of Charity. While Applegate has decent enough (not great) extension and solid, but rather rudimentary form (though there's a hesitancy at times in her movements that elite dancers just DON'T HAVE -- every second with them is specific and precise visual poetry down to the smallest detail, even when they're not dancing), overall, her dancing is about at the level of a good (not great) student in an advanced class at Broadway Dance Center. Those folks over there can most certainly dance quite well, but, realistically, none of them are ready to star on Broadway as Charity (and without a hit sitcom credit they never will).

Applegate reminded me of two of my best friends from high school, both of whom ended up on Broadway later -- only she reminds me of them when they were still 17 year old high school students, starring in the school musicals and local theatre, before they moved to New York right after high school and began taking two and three dance classes a day, 7 days a week for the 6 or 7 years before they both finally got cast in their first Broadway shows. They had taken ballet and jazz and tap from the age of 4 and had incredible extensions and could immediately pick up the most ridiculously complicated choreography -- but they were just a pair of good dancers out of many thousands who try. They both were better dancers (as well as good singers and actors) than Applegate by the time they were 22. They each picked up a couple of Broadway credits for a few years and eventually got tired of the game and moved on.

Perhaps, it's unfair, but expectations for someone recreating a legendary role are unavoidable if you've seen previous productions and incarnations of a show (just look at all of the Wicked and Rent threads constantly discussing who's the best Elphaba, Galinda, Mark, Joanne, etc......). If you've paid your money and have seen multiple performers in the same role, it's not only fair, but completely human and normal to make comparisons. Obviously, if this is your first encounter with the show, then anything that happened before is irrelevant. But for us, who have seen Charity before, it's hard not to be disappointed with what's happening on stage at the Hirshfeld nightly. It's great if someone loves this incarnation of the show and thinks that Applegate is perfection, but understand that for some of us, this production was and is a complete disappointment.

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/5/05 at 12:22pm

I've only seen the CHARITY movie, and clips of Gwen. This was my first time seeing CHARITY on stage. It's one of my favorite scores ever, and I had to see it on stage. It's not my fault I wasn't alive for the original, or even the revival - I can't help if I missed Allen in the role, and Ann etc. That's not my fault. I am happy with what I can get. And what I'm getting is a charming performance by Christina. Walter Bobbie has said - for this revival - Yes Charity dances a few times, but the soul of the character is the acting, and it calls for fabulous comedic actress, and that was Charity is. In THIS revival Charity really only dances in

If My Friends Could See Me Now
There's Gotta Be Something Better Than This
I'm A Brass Band

She moves in other numbers - but those are her main dance numbers. It's really not that much. I really feel for this revival it's MUCH more important to have a stage personality with STRONG physical comedy skills. Yes you have to be a good dancer, and yes you have to carry a tune. And Christina can do both of those.

Look no one is saying she is Ziemba, Reinking, Bebe, Allen, d'Amboise etc. She never ever claimed to be as good as those dancers. Dancing is the main talent for those females. Christina's main talent is acting, and she is one damn good actress.

And look. I KNOW most of you older members who have seen previous Charitys - think I'm just this little boy who knows nothing about CHARITY, and just loves the bubblegum revival, and is obcessed with Christina Applegate. But that is not the case. I own 6-7 Charity recordings, I've heard most of the great Charitys. I watch the movie all the time, and I've seen Gwen on the Sullivan special. I also own the original script of CHARITY, which was released in the 60's by random house, and I found a copy of this rare item on EBAY. I am able to know that Applegate isn't the best Charity, and this isn't the best production of Charity. But since I wasn't born for the previous Bway productions of CHARITY, I take what I can get. And what I can get is a charming production of Charity. It's one of Broadway's best scores ever, and no one can deny that. Definitely better than most scores on Broadway right now.

I don't possibly want to know how you people would be acting if Marissa Tomei or other actresses with little dance talents had this role. I just don't understand why everyone has to be so negative about Christina. You people do realize you've stated the same opinions in this thread months ago. We know how you feel, why are you rehashing it? Let those who weren't able to see the great Charitys - enjoy what we have, instead of knocking what we enjoy every 5 minutes. How do you think we feel - seeing something we love and care about being bashed every day? Put yourself in our shoes. It's not fun, and it hurts - because we are passionate about this production. Just let us be, and let us enjoy this production.

Thank you, I am done.

Updated On: 8/5/05 at 12:22 PM