#26
Posted: 4/23/12 at 10:16am
Elaine Paige is not the first lady of musical theatre in the UK just for Evita, its because of all her stage credits in the UK, record sales and concerts.
"First Lady" of American Theatre — Page 2
#27
Posted: 4/23/12 at 10:36am
"Patash, your comparisons are false ones: Those people were "first _________" because they were, well, the first. Nobody is claiming that Helen Hayes was the first female actor in America."
But you missed my main point. I never suggested she was the FIRST female actor, but rather the first iconic American born female actress of the stage -- big difference. You might notice if you go back that I was referring to a title of First LADY. There's a reason I put LADY in all caps and why I mentioned that the US normally doesn't bestow the term LADY (as the UK does, for example). But I think LADY is the definitive word in that title bestowed on Helen Hayes.
All the discussion about an entirely different use of the term "first lady" meaning 'being wife to the President' really is pretty meaningless in this discussion. Surely most people are able to see the difference between the phrase "First Lady of the American Theatre" and a first lady, being the wife of a President! Well, maybe not.
And by the way, my posts are not meant to say "my definition is right and everyone else's is wrong" -- but as with all discussions, I simply state my opinion(s) as to the history and the meaning of the expression.
But you missed my main point. I never suggested she was the FIRST female actor, but rather the first iconic American born female actress of the stage -- big difference. You might notice if you go back that I was referring to a title of First LADY. There's a reason I put LADY in all caps and why I mentioned that the US normally doesn't bestow the term LADY (as the UK does, for example). But I think LADY is the definitive word in that title bestowed on Helen Hayes.
All the discussion about an entirely different use of the term "first lady" meaning 'being wife to the President' really is pretty meaningless in this discussion. Surely most people are able to see the difference between the phrase "First Lady of the American Theatre" and a first lady, being the wife of a President! Well, maybe not.
And by the way, my posts are not meant to say "my definition is right and everyone else's is wrong" -- but as with all discussions, I simply state my opinion(s) as to the history and the meaning of the expression.
Updated On: 4/23/12 at 10:36 AM
#28
Posted: 4/23/12 at 11:04am
"What Helen Hayes and Irene Dunne, I have also did."
Left: Helen Hayes as Queen Victoria in Victoria Regina
Right: Bert Lahr as Helen Hayes as Queen Victoria in Two on the Aisle
Left: Helen Hayes as Queen Victoria in Victoria Regina
Right: Bert Lahr as Helen Hayes as Queen Victoria in Two on the Aisle
#29
Posted: 4/23/12 at 11:05am
Yes, but your examples were to people who were actually the first at something--the first to make a sustained powered flight and the first president of this nation. You then went on to say that those titles were theirs alone, not to be handed on to a later generation.
That's what I'm saying are false comparisons. Or am I not understanding the connection you're drawing?
I never said anything about first lady = wife of the president.
That's what I'm saying are false comparisons. Or am I not understanding the connection you're drawing?
I never said anything about first lady = wife of the president.
#30
Posted: 4/23/12 at 1:31pm
Reginald, for starters I did not say you did say anything about first lady/wife of the President. Are you not able to understand the concept that when I start a new paragraph the discussion might relate to other posters? I thought starting the paragraph with "All the discussion about . . ." would be a good clue that I was referring to all the discussion about that point, not to something specific YOU had said which had nothing to do with that point.
Now here is a concept that may be too difficult for you to understand -- but there were a couple of different things going in my previous post. One was the idea that when a person dies, that doesn't mean a title given to him should then move to someone alive. Whether that title of "first" meant the "first to do something" or the "best", I was trying to say that when someone dies you don't take away their title (unless that title includes something like the words "current" or "living". But yes you did misunderstand the comparisons I made. I thought I explained the emphasis on LADY and not on FIRST, but clearly you didn't get it. You are the one focusing on being the first to do something, not I! If Helen Hayes title had been "First actor in the US" then the comparisons you're trying to make would be accurate, but you seem to be missing the point that her title does not refer to being the first (numerically) to do anything.
Now here is a concept that may be too difficult for you to understand -- but there were a couple of different things going in my previous post. One was the idea that when a person dies, that doesn't mean a title given to him should then move to someone alive. Whether that title of "first" meant the "first to do something" or the "best", I was trying to say that when someone dies you don't take away their title (unless that title includes something like the words "current" or "living". But yes you did misunderstand the comparisons I made. I thought I explained the emphasis on LADY and not on FIRST, but clearly you didn't get it. You are the one focusing on being the first to do something, not I! If Helen Hayes title had been "First actor in the US" then the comparisons you're trying to make would be accurate, but you seem to be missing the point that her title does not refer to being the first (numerically) to do anything.
#31
Posted: 4/23/12 at 1:32pm
I'm pretty sure Carolotta Guidicelli is the first lady of the stage.
#32
Posted: 4/23/12 at 1:35pm
Sorry to have upset you so much, Patash.
I guess I'm just stupid.
I guess I'm just stupid.
#33
Posted: 4/23/12 at 1:45pm
I'm not upset in the least. You questioned what I said, so I explained it, that's all.
I'm sorry if my explanations have caused you to think you're stupid. I don't know how to make them any easier.
I'm sorry if my explanations have caused you to think you're stupid. I don't know how to make them any easier.
#34
Posted: 4/23/12 at 2:19pm
I'm sorry, stupid.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#35
Posted: 4/24/12 at 2:43am
I vote Lansbury.
If I had to choose between Bernadette and Patti, I'd vote Bernadette because First Ladies need to be comfortable with having their photos taken.
If I had to choose between Bernadette and Patti, I'd vote Bernadette because First Ladies need to be comfortable with having their photos taken.
I like your imperturbable perspicacity.
Updated On: 4/24/12 at 02:43 AM
#36
Posted: 4/24/12 at 7:54am
Wasn't it Helen Hayes who said "Stupid is as stupid does"?
#37
Posted: 4/24/12 at 8:09am
No, PalJoey, you're confusing your characters. Helen Hayes is the one who said "Life in the theatre is a box of chocolates."
#38
Posted: 4/24/12 at 8:15am
By the way, the thread about the Helen Hayes Awards reminds me. If we're going to strip Ms. Hayes of her title as First Lady of American Theatre, perhaps they need to also rename those awards -- maybe the Patti Lupone or Bernadette awards? If we don't want to maintain an honored title for a legend after they die, then why honor them with the title of an award.
#39
Posted: 4/24/12 at 9:17am
We are looking forward to Antoinette Perry's receiving her long overdue Arianda.
From the National Congress of Acting Teachers Presentation (200
:
William Esper: I knew there was a bond there. A lot of teachers come out of the Middle West. You did too, and many others. And you too. But anyway, you know, the theatre was changing so much. And sitting there in Cleveland, every Saturday we’d go to the Hanna Theatre, which is still there, the roadhouse, and we'd sit in the upper reaches of the upper balcony and try to discern what was going on onstage. And I can’t remember her name any more, the first lady of the American theatre –
audience member: Katherine Cornell.
William Esper: Katherine Cornell.
Lynn Cohen: Oh, that first lady.
William Esper: That first lady, the one who preceded Helen Hayes. And she came, and of course we all went, and it was sold out so that we couldn’t get tickets sitting together, so we were sort of scattered around. I was sitting by myself, and the play started, and you know that all of a sudden I was aware that the lights had come up for the intermission, and I was asleep. And I thought, “God, this is terrible. Here’s the first lady of the American theatre, all my dreams, and I’ve fallen asleep.” So we went out to intermission and some of my pals were there, and everybody’s saying, “Well, what did you think? What did you think?” What could I say? I couldn’t say I went to sleep. I’d be turned out. So I said, “Oh, marvelous, marvelous, just amazing, just amazing.” And went back, and I was determined that, God, I’ve got to stay awake through the second act, and I fell asleep again. It wasn’t until a few years later I understood that there was a critical faculty there going on in me that was protecting me from her acting.
***
Perhaps my dear Patash you should be complaining that Helen Hayes (whom, if memory serves me well, Esper didn't have glowing things to say about either) stripped Katherine Cornell or her title before you complain of someone else having stripped Helen Hayes of hers.
From the National Congress of Acting Teachers Presentation (200
: William Esper: I knew there was a bond there. A lot of teachers come out of the Middle West. You did too, and many others. And you too. But anyway, you know, the theatre was changing so much. And sitting there in Cleveland, every Saturday we’d go to the Hanna Theatre, which is still there, the roadhouse, and we'd sit in the upper reaches of the upper balcony and try to discern what was going on onstage. And I can’t remember her name any more, the first lady of the American theatre –
audience member: Katherine Cornell.
William Esper: Katherine Cornell.
Lynn Cohen: Oh, that first lady.
William Esper: That first lady, the one who preceded Helen Hayes. And she came, and of course we all went, and it was sold out so that we couldn’t get tickets sitting together, so we were sort of scattered around. I was sitting by myself, and the play started, and you know that all of a sudden I was aware that the lights had come up for the intermission, and I was asleep. And I thought, “God, this is terrible. Here’s the first lady of the American theatre, all my dreams, and I’ve fallen asleep.” So we went out to intermission and some of my pals were there, and everybody’s saying, “Well, what did you think? What did you think?” What could I say? I couldn’t say I went to sleep. I’d be turned out. So I said, “Oh, marvelous, marvelous, just amazing, just amazing.” And went back, and I was determined that, God, I’ve got to stay awake through the second act, and I fell asleep again. It wasn’t until a few years later I understood that there was a critical faculty there going on in me that was protecting me from her acting.
***
Perhaps my dear Patash you should be complaining that Helen Hayes (whom, if memory serves me well, Esper didn't have glowing things to say about either) stripped Katherine Cornell or her title before you complain of someone else having stripped Helen Hayes of hers.
Updated On: 4/24/12 at 09:17 AM
#40
Posted: 4/24/12 at 1:21pm
Where do you get the idea that Helen Hayes stripped Katherine Cornell of that title? I can find no reference to when that title was given to either of them.
According to Wikpedia:
"It is unclear who or when Hayes was called the "First Lady of the Theatre". Her friend, actress Katharine Cornell also held that title, and each thought that the other deserved it.[10][11] One critic said that Cornell played every Queen as though she were a woman, whereas Hayes played every woman as though she were a Queen.[10]"
According to Wikpedia:
"It is unclear who or when Hayes was called the "First Lady of the Theatre". Her friend, actress Katharine Cornell also held that title, and each thought that the other deserved it.[10][11] One critic said that Cornell played every Queen as though she were a woman, whereas Hayes played every woman as though she were a Queen.[10]"
#41
Posted: 4/24/12 at 1:37pm
I got the idea from William Esper saying Cornell preceded Hayes in having the title ("stripped" was your usage not mine). You got your ideas from Wikipedia.
I have no idea what's correct. What difference does it make? What I take exception to is the idea that once one is proclaimed the First Lady of the American Theatre that no one else can ever merit that distinction, the implication that Helen Hayes is the once and future First Lady.
Frankly, I don't think it's all that important. But I find it interesting, Patash, that you seem adamant that Hayes holds the title for all time. And curious that you seem so resistant to other people holding the opposite belief.
I have no idea what's correct. What difference does it make? What I take exception to is the idea that once one is proclaimed the First Lady of the American Theatre that no one else can ever merit that distinction, the implication that Helen Hayes is the once and future First Lady.
Frankly, I don't think it's all that important. But I find it interesting, Patash, that you seem adamant that Hayes holds the title for all time. And curious that you seem so resistant to other people holding the opposite belief.
Updated On: 4/24/12 at 01:37 PM
#43
Posted: 4/24/12 at 1:57pm
Gee, that was a very adult comment!
I do admit though that I usually find it funny when people go on and on trying to prove their point and at the same time 'chastise' people for trying to prove their point. Other than my original comment about the issue, all my other posts (with the exception at the weak attempt at Forest Gump humor) have been merely to speak to issues brought about by other posters. Isn't that allowed in a message board?
I do admit though that I usually find it funny when people go on and on trying to prove their point and at the same time 'chastise' people for trying to prove their point. Other than my original comment about the issue, all my other posts (with the exception at the weak attempt at Forest Gump humor) have been merely to speak to issues brought about by other posters. Isn't that allowed in a message board?
#44
Posted: 4/24/12 at 2:20pm
Who said I wanted to make a very adult comment?
Maybe it's not you that's crazy, but your point that's crazy. No one ever stripped Helen Hayes of anything.
Maybe it's not you that's crazy, but your point that's crazy. No one ever stripped Helen Hayes of anything.
#45
Posted: 4/24/12 at 2:36pm
Anyone who tries to imply that Reg is unable to understand ANYTHING, is crazy.
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#46
Posted: 4/24/12 at 2:43pm
I read this comment:
"Perhaps my dear Patash you should be complaining that Helen Hayes . . . stepped Katherine Cornell or her title before you complain of someone else having stripped Helen Hayes of hers."
Perhaps I just don't know that usage of the word "stepped" but I took "stepped Katherine Cornell or her title" to mean 'stripped Katherine Cornell of her title' yet since you say "stripped was YOUR usage not mine", henrikegerman, I'll have to assume you did indeed mean "stepped" -- and I'll just have to continue scratching my head as to what that sentence means. I apologize for misreading your statement. I thought I was merely repeating your comment of "stripped Katherine Cornell of her title" but I guess that was incorrect.
"Perhaps my dear Patash you should be complaining that Helen Hayes . . . stepped Katherine Cornell or her title before you complain of someone else having stripped Helen Hayes of hers."
Perhaps I just don't know that usage of the word "stepped" but I took "stepped Katherine Cornell or her title" to mean 'stripped Katherine Cornell of her title' yet since you say "stripped was YOUR usage not mine", henrikegerman, I'll have to assume you did indeed mean "stepped" -- and I'll just have to continue scratching my head as to what that sentence means. I apologize for misreading your statement. I thought I was merely repeating your comment of "stripped Katherine Cornell of her title" but I guess that was incorrect.
Updated On: 4/24/12 at 02:43 PM
#47
Posted: 4/24/12 at 2:56pm
Patash, I did mean "stripped." "Stepped" was a typo.
What I meant by "stripped" being your term of reference was that you had previously posted this:
"By the way, the thread about the Helen Hayes Awards reminds me. If we're going to STRIP [emphasis added] Ms. Hayes of her title as First Lady of American Theatre, perhaps they need to also rename those awards -- maybe the Patti Lupone or Bernadette awards? If we don't want to maintain an honored title for a legend after they die, then why honor them with the title of an award."
What I meant by "stripped" being your term of reference was that you had previously posted this:
"By the way, the thread about the Helen Hayes Awards reminds me. If we're going to STRIP [emphasis added] Ms. Hayes of her title as First Lady of American Theatre, perhaps they need to also rename those awards -- maybe the Patti Lupone or Bernadette awards? If we don't want to maintain an honored title for a legend after they die, then why honor them with the title of an award."
Updated On: 4/24/12 at 02:56 PM
#48
Posted: 4/24/12 at 3:47pm
So, Patash, you're not a drippy grad student, but actually a baby boomer? You've been going to the theatre for 40 years but your mind can't grasp that the First Lady of American Theatre or Musical Theatre or whatever theater (since there's no link, this is just a discussion stemming from an OPs ramblings) isn't an actual title or a literal concept?
#49
Posted: 4/24/12 at 4:04pm
For all its worth, I grew up always referring to Helen Hayes as the First Lady of the American Theatre. So, I agree with Patash, who is definitely not crazy. Incidentally, I met Helen Hayes at a gallery showing in the Village and she was a most charming and easy to talk to lady.
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