Gay Icons: A Theory- Page 2

[Auggie27]

Posted: 11/26/03 at 11:39am

You're very right, Robbie. Patience and perspecive are equally crucial.

Thank you for so eloquently starting such a stirring discussion. As is sometimes the case, I had no idea I even had such strong feelings until I started typing. This entire dialectic may be OT, but I'm glad we all shared.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/26/03 at 11:43am

Well, the only reason I believe it to be on topic is that it's related directly to an article written for this site by our very own Voiceanth.

And THANK YOU, Anthony, for inspiring such a discussion.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO Y'ALL!!!!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/26/03 at 11:57am

I can't exactly argue with what you guys are saying. You make excellent points, and I do agree with you, Auggie.

I think that it is powerful and effective at this moment for middle America to see pro gay marriage heterosexuals talking on TV. I think that more articulate gay speakers like Elizabeth Birch need to be seen, as well.

Thanks for a great discussion!

[orion59]

Posted: 11/26/03 at 12:31pm

The black tv boom of teh 70's is a great comparrison. Back then we had a show like Good Times that portrayed a typical family with everyday issues. The only catch was that they had to be a bit over the top and funny because they were black. We were able to accept a typical black family on tv as long as there was a bit of teh old minstral show thrown in.

The important thing about thoseshows is that beyond the over done characters and humor at the expense of a race, there was something subtly coming through. taht would be the realization taht tehse black families diod deal with exactly teh same situations in life as teh white families. They had teh same goals and dreams.

We watch Will and Grace and we see Jack being a ridiculouly superficial and self involved queen all for teh sake of comedy. At the same time, there is the message from the charcter of Will that there are gay men who want a committed realtionship and family just like heterosexuals. I guess like all groups before us, we need to get the message across in a non threatening way. That may mean humor at our own expense and playing up our stereotypes for laughs until we reach the point that other groups finally are reaching where we are portrayed by a variety of characters and role models.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 11/26/03 at 4:48pm

V. well said, Orion.


(As for Will ... I agree that he's a balance against the outre Jack. I just wish he wasn't so totally unlucky in love. How many seasons has it been without even a hint of something serious? He seems unrealistically date-less at times. He may be a noble role model, waiting for the ultimate Mr. Right, but he's portrayed rather sexlessly. Does that make him "safer?")

[Auggie27]

Posted: 11/26/03 at 4:49pm

Updated On: 11/26/03 at 04:49 PM

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/26/03 at 5:41pm

Maybe we are past the need for GAY ICONS. Maybe it's time we look to our GAY HEROS. The cultural climate is so different than the times when Judy and Barbra and Liza and Julie were hanging on my bedroom wall. I felt alone then. Now, I come to find out that I have two gay brothers, mom and dad are the most supportive parents and no one bats an eye if I tell them I am gay.

So instead of needing someone to comfort us in our solitude, we can rejoice and thank those who have helped knock down the walls that have kept us searching for acceptance.

Harvey Milk, Harvey Feirstien, Ellen Degeneres, Martina Navratolova, Barney Frank, Greg Luganis, Larry Kramer,Ian McKellan, Rupert Everet, Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner, even those two guys from the Amazing Race, for Christ's sake. And, dare I say it, ROSIE O'DONNELL. And every other brave soul that dared to come out and be themselves.

Thank all of you for making "GAY" Icons obselete. Now we only have Icons. ( Even on this board, as I pointed out on another thread, we have two STRAIGHT Robs who adore Chita Rivera.) But we have many many many GAY HEROS.

Posted: 11/26/03 at 6:38pm

Going to join Sueleen on this point.

Why are gay icons even needed in this day and age?

One might make an argument that gays who still cry out their need for an icon might be stuck in their own stereotypes.

Heros, gay or straight, are needed. Anyone that that can be looked up to in this age of "me first" should be applauded regardless of sexual orientation. One's sexual orientation is just one facet of that the indefinable marvel the human being.

Bulldog.

[orion59]

Posted: 11/27/03 at 11:21pm

The gay icon vs gay hero comments make a lot of sense but, I wonder when some of us talk about gay icons do we really mean gay heros? I think some of us are seeing them as one in the same in this discussion although, technically, they would be very different. Maybe that's why we don't have icons and instead have depictions of gay people on tv and in movies that we pay attention to and analyze their worthiness in portraying us as gay people. When you look at the public figures named in Sueleen's post, whether you see them as icons or heros, the most inporatnt thing is that they are there, out and show the world taht gay people make worthwhile contributions. That includes Rosie, as much as I feel like chocking on those words as I say them. I don't like her, I don't think she's always the best role model in general for anyone but, she came out and refused to continue leading a closeted life for the sake of her career and that is brave.

[orion59]

Posted: 11/27/03 at 11:31pm

Now, on the subject of Will Truman's sexless life, that's always been a mystery to me. His chaacter is clearly meant to balance out and show the opposite to Jack who, in spite of hios over the top flamboyant behavior is an accurate depiction of some gay men. Will is shown as a realtionship oriented amn who has expressed a desire to have a family yet they keep this successful, great looking wonderful guy single. It doesn't make sense that the writers feel it is safer not to have him in a serious realtionship. If they felt that way about the chaarcter, I imagine he would be more like Jack. He would be frivoluos and be another laughable gay man. So why is Will single? At least we now have that other show(can't remember the name)in which two gay men have raised a daughter who is engaged to teh son of the blue collar heterosexual couple

[stonewall2]

Posted: 6/30/05 at 8:01pm

Amen Robbie. Hopefully, the day will come soon...... And it is so nice to read a well written, well thought out, KIND thread. Thank you.

[One Song Glory]

Posted: 7/1/05 at 8:07am

Very well said.

Posted: 7/1/05 at 9:12am

Priest - yes, you're right. And notice who participated - they're still here making some terrific contributions. Perhaps the state of BWW isn't as dire as some may think.

[incendiary_wit]

Posted: 7/1/05 at 10:44am

I bow before you robbiej, I just plain bow.

And as for Gay icons, we've still got Cher, Alanis (I didn't thing so either, but I took a general poll), Madonna, and Britney.

[Avigdor]

Posted: 7/1/05 at 11:03am

A suspect in a Brooklyn bias attack was formally indicted Tuesday in the savage beating of a gay man.

Dwan Prince, 26, was beaten into a coma by two men in Brownsville on June 8th. Police say Steven Pomie, 24, and another man shouted anti-gay remarks as they attacked Prince.

Pomie, who was arrested in Seaside Heights, New Jersey, nearly two weeks ago and brought back to the city, has been charged with several counts of assault, including two counts of assault as a hate crime, which carries a stiffer jail sentence of 15 to 25 years if convicted.

Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hines says there will be no plea-bargaining in this case because of the brutality of the attack. The DA says the only chance Pomie has for a reduced sentence is to turn over his alleged accomplice, who remains at large.

“In this particular case of Dwan Prince, he was known across his neighborhood as a hard working, gentle person, and he was nearly murdered by these two people. And the message today is that no society can tolerate that kind of evil,” said Hynes.

“My son had to be putting out the garbage, and he is brutally, viciously attacked,” said Valerie Prinez, the victim’s mother. “He's fighting for his life, and he will never return to [the old] Dwan. I have nobody to talk to me at midnight - this is my only son.”

Members of the Brooklyn gay community joined the DA at his office and told reporters hate crimes against gays and lesbians in the city are on the rise.

"About every 36 hours we get a report of some assault in the area on a lesbian, gay, transgender or bisexual person. Unfortunately, the authorities don’t always get that information, and that’s something that we’ve been working on for years with our community as well as with the authorities to encourage reporting," said Clarence Patton of New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence.

“Hate is deadly. Dwan fights for his life, and we cannot stand by and allow him to suffer in silence,” said Basil Lucas of the same group. “So I ask us all to look within ourselves and give any information we have so that these cowards will be taken off the streets."

Prince's mother says she wants to move her son to a hospital in New Jersey to be closer to him.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 7/1/05 at 12:11pm

Wish I had been a member at the time of this great thread....


My only comment is, I truly hate the term "straight acting"!

[cturtle]

Posted: 7/1/05 at 12:34pm

yeah, PRIEST went mining for gold last nite

[onceadancer2]

Posted: 7/1/05 at 1:42pm

Very interesting topic indeed!

One thing I've noticed is that the gay icons you mention were mainly of the movies and recordings. Very few gay icons of the theatre!

Being a great deal older than many of you, I can say that, during my performing days on Broadway, there were a number of gay icons who are mostly forgotten tday. But, in their time, they also dared to be differnet, to telegraph to their audiences what gay subtext and subculture were about (and many times these things were picked up on by critics, usually a gay critic like Stark Young!), and were held in esteem by many gay theatrgoers for their bravery in being themselves.

Those gay icons:

Sophie Tucker
Nora Bayes
Ethel Barrymore
Marie Dressler
Vivienne Segal
Ina Claire
Shirley Booth
Katharine Cornell
Audrey Christie
June Havoc
Gertrude Lawrence
Beatrice Lillie
Ethel Waters
Adelaide Hall
Helen Broderick
Jean Dixon
Josephine Hull
Jean Adair
Eva LeGalliene
Maude Adams - NY's original Peter Pan -- she dared to live openly with her companion for over 50 years and was buried next to her--and it was reported in her obituary in the NY Times.
Noel Coward
Cole Porter
Alfred Lunt

To my generation of theatregoers and players, these people were truly identified--in one way or another--with living your life as openly and as truthfully as possible.

Miriam

Updated On: 7/1/05 at 01:42 PM

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 7/1/05 at 1:45pm

Miriam,
It is always great to hear from you. I hope you are doing well.
Thanks again for your insight and willingness to enlighten us.