How a Spider-Man musical became a theatrical disaster- Page 2

[A Director]

Posted: 12/2/20 at 4:45am

I don't know if any of these woman are sopranos, but they are all in Rock.

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/best-female-rock-singers/

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/2/20 at 8:27am

Ugh. I never said there weren't women in rock. I never objected to the idea of women in rock. That was never the point, at all. There are a number of not just good but great female rock singers. I never even said their weren't sopranos in rock: I said they were rare. And that is simply fact. Most rock does not use a soprano voice, it is not a voice inherent to the form. It is not voice the sound requires or often utilizes. Just get over it and move on.

Back on track:

Spider-Man needed to embrace the actual Spider-Man mythos. It was the only way for the show to work because, maybe thanks more to the movies now than the comic books, just about everyone who is interested in superhero stories knows and likes that mythos.

No one wants a Spider-Man that centers on a silly, campy villain--the whole shot in the arm comic books and comic book movies have gotten since the 1980's is by rejecting a campy approach to their subject. It needed to be centered on Peter Parker. It needed to be about him and his struggles, and the unique mixture of strength and weakness that came with being Spider-Man.

Obviously, there was still room for a soprano voice, if the need was felt for one, in either Gwen Stacy or Mary Jane Watson (depending on which heroine they chose to go with), they just couldn't be the center of the evening. Because they aren't the center of the story: Spider-Man and his villains are. But Spider-Man: Turn off the Dark was built around the idea that a soprano has to be the focus of the show, and since a villain could conceivably be a big part of the story's focus, they chose an irrelevant villain and camped her up just for the sake of supplying the "need" for a particular kind of voice. It was as boneheaded a decision based on as boneheaded a premise as is possible. 

If you make a musical about a subject, it's best for the musical's main focus to be on that subject. And the main focus of a Spider-Man musical has to be--this isn't complex or difficult to figure out--Spider-Man.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/2/20 at 9:11am

joevitus said: "What a bizarre response. I "don't" want to talk about what I've been talking about all along--the foolishness of requiring the material to incorporate a soprano singer?"

If that's all you had talked about, there would have been no further discussion. Our discussion, as you conveniently attempt to disregard now, grew out of my passing response to your obviously silly comment that "rock rarely uses a soprano voice, anyway." You easily could have acknowledged that unnecessary faux pas on your part and moved on to your central thesis. Alas you persist. Not admitting silly and obvious mistakes: who does that remind one of?

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/2/20 at 9:21am

It can't be "obviously silly" when in fact rock rarely uses a soprano voice. That's just reality. Now let's move on. You can be a big boy and admit you were wrong, or simply not reply. Up to you.

You can discuss other aspects of Spider-Man, now. You always could have, if you really were more interested in that than arguing.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 12/2/20 at 11:53am

I was enjoying the content of your debate before it turned into a pissing contest. 

Hogan, if joevitus' "faux pas" was saying that the rock music world is male-heavy, you haven't really offered much in the way of convincing counterarguments. Unless I missed something, the last thing you said on that specific point was to say that "they aren't as big of a minority as you think." But that's not really going to change anyone's mind, is it? That's why that part of your debate has remained in a loop. 

And then you tried to steer the conversation back to rock musicals, and Joevitus did go along, making valid points about how forcing in a certain type of voice because of an arbitrary rule of thumb makes even less sense in musical theatre, because musicals need to put storytelling first. 

However, Joevitus -- unless I missed something, it looks like you haven't responded to Hogan's other point: that regardless of the way things are in the mainstream rock world, and regardless of how things SHOULD be with musical storytelling, in rock musicals it IS very common for there to be soprano voices (if not in principal roles, then at least in the vocal ensemble). Hogan, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you want Joevitus to acknowledge that point. 

Sorry if I put words in anyone's mouth. Just seems like you guys were actually having an interesting argument, but you let it descend into bickering. 

Updated On: 12/2/20 at 11:53 AM

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/2/20 at 12:32pm

JBroadway said: "I was enjoying the content of your debate before it turned into a pissing contest.

Hogan, if joevitus' "faux pas" was saying that the rock music world is male-heavy, you haven't really offered much in the way of convincing counterarguments. Unless I missed something, the last thing you said on that specific point was to say that "they aren't as big of a minority as you think." But that's not really going to change anyone's mind, is it? That's why that part of your debate has remained in a loop.

And then you tried to steer the conversation back to rock musicals, and Joevitus did goalong,making valid points about how forcing in a certain type of voice because of an arbitrary rule of thumb makes even less sense in musical theatre, because musicals need to put storytelling first.

However, Joevitus --unless I missed something, itlooks like you haven'tresponded to Hogan's other point: that regardlessof the way things are in the mainstream rock world, and regardless of how things SHOULD be with musical storytelling,in rock musicals it ISvery common for there to be soprano voices (if not in principal roles, then at least in the vocal ensemble). Hogan, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you want Joevitus to acknowledge that point."

There is no question but that nearly every rock musical has utilized a soprano voice. Indeed, the whole reason Yitzhak is played by a woman in Hedwig is so the show can incorporate that sound. I have no argument with the reality of that, only with the lazy thinking that in this case led to the utilization of one. (Though many rock fans deride rock musicals for not really being rock--and the use of such an atypical voice may be part of the reason why).

 

Updated On: 12/2/20 at 12:32 PM

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 12/3/20 at 12:54pm

This thread prompted me to check out Song of Spider-Man from the library, which I found to be very interesting. Most fascinating is the basic fact that Taymor's concept is really pretty good, and you can totally see how it could have worked, and you can also see how they, much like the various forms of webbing that failed to deploy onstage, got caught up in all the wrong places. It's kind of like watching a season of Drag Race knowing the winner, so you get a god's eye view of where the failures were and how they accrued to produce catastrophe.

One of the other interesting aspects is that it gives more clarity to exactly why it was such an expensive production, and how much of that was simply due to the excessive delays in actually mounting it. At some point Berger points out that, though the budget had ballooned to something like $60 million, what was onstage was still only a $20 million dollar show, which was reflected in a lot of reviews and feedback at the time. It looked cheap because, relatively speaking, it was cheap. What was expensive was the holding pattern it had to sit around in for so many months - if you leave a gumball in a storage unit for a year, you now have a $2000 gumball.

I also had a lot of fun reading the archived preview thread in the time it took for the book to travel to my library branch, which was a nice refresher and made for some funny surprises of recognition, like the woman in one preview saying "I don't know about anyone else, but I feel like a guinea pig!". It was really engaging being granted simultaneous access to the public/forum response and the internal workings, particularly when Berger noted that he was, indeed, reading many of the things that were posted online. Remember that, everyone - they're among us!

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/3/20 at 1:27pm

I saw it in its last incarnation. (Sat in that special mezz section. The flying zone or whatever they called it) The show didn't look cheap to me. I actually found it to be the most visually stunning thing I had seen on a Broadway stage. Now the rest of it was a bit of a mess. I remember when they announced that Bono and The Edge were writing the music and thought "Hmm, this just went south." I am a big U2 fan but it just made me wonder in what direction they were going with this. All in all, I still had a blast at the show. Afterwards I was really sorry I was not able to have seen it in all of its incarnations.

I had actually planned to see it again just to "see" it but never got back. Really glad I saw it as it introduced me to Reeve Carney. I know a lot of people don't care for him but I love his voice. JMO

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/3/20 at 1:27pm

JBroadway said: "I was enjoying the content of your debate before it turned into a pissing contest.

Hogan, if joevitus' "faux pas" was saying that the rock music world is male-heavy, you haven't really offered much in the way of convincing counterarguments. Unless I missed something, the last thing you said on that specific point was to say that "they aren't as big of a minority as you think." But that's not really going to change anyone's mind, is it? That's why that part of your debate has remained in a loop."
 

I somehow overlooked your post so pardon the late response. I think you misquoted me re "minority" above but in any case, let me offer this as a specific, from the Grammy noms.

Best Rock Performance
SHAMEIKA Fiona Apple
NOT Big Thief
KYOTO Phoebe Bridgers
 THE STEPS HAIM
 STAY HIGH Brittany Howard
 DAYLIGHT Grace Potter

"And then you tried to steer the conversation back to rock musicals, and Joevitus did goalong,making valid points about how forcing in a certain type of voice because of an arbitrary rule of thumb makes even less sense in musical theatre, because musicals need to put storytelling first."
 

I am happy for Joe to state an opinion about what was wrong with Spider-Man. The sole cause of all of this back and forth was my passing comment challenging the rarity notion. That's it. I have no idea if there is valid evidence that the presence of Arachne had anything to do with gaming a soprano into the score. I confess I have not read much about the making of any version of the play because tbh it never interested me that much. I always took the character's presence to arise from Taymor's desire to add something more intellectual than a comic book to her work. Has anyone said otherwise? In any event, she obviously failed, and that's something on which we all can agree. 
 

[hicaesar]

Posted: 12/4/20 at 10:59pm

I don't think it was particularly worse than Moulin Rouge. Really fancy sets. Good cast. Should be a good plot. But feels like an empty, hollow, theme park show without the heart and soul of a typical Broadway musical.

I remember it being fine. Moulin Rouge was fine too but I paid $200 for it, which is way too much for a "fine" show. ha. 

[sondheim94]

Posted: 12/5/20 at 6:49pm

James885 said: "Still, I preferred Taymor's innovative-yet-misguidedjumble of a show to the bland and sterile version that opened."

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Saw it in previews (including the Geek Chorus), then again after it opened. MUCH preferred what I saw in previews. It was much more engaging, exciting, and far less bland.

 

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 2:02am

Joevitus, I would rather read 10 posts from After Eight than one more post from you. You have become the single most insufferable presence on this board - a genuine know-it-all of the worst kind.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 4:42am

Tough. There aren't many sopranos in rock, it's a voice almost totally out of sympathy with the nature of the form, and all you have to do is look at the history of the genre to see that.

Actually,  I have said I was wrong or don't know about something, so I can't be "a genuine know-it-all of the worst kind." But I won't go along with the pretense that something false is true just because everyone else is playing along, and I won't pretend to be wrong when I'm right just to make others happy. I guess you're one of those people who prefer group-think to reality. If so, it isn't surprising you don't care for my comments.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 9:44am

joevitus said: "Tough. There aren't many sopranos in rock, it's a voice almost totally out of sympathy with the nature of the form, and all you have to do is look at the history of the genre to see that.

Actually, I have said I waswrong or don't know about something, so I can't be "a genuine know-it-all of the worst kind." But I won't go along with the pretense that something false is true just because everyone else is playing along, and I won't pretend to be wrong when I'm right just to make others happy. I guess you're one of those people who prefer group-think to reality. If so, it isn't surprising you don't care for my comments."

Joe, in this case, I have twice demonstrated that you were wrong, both within musical theatre and across the broad genre. You have not engaged with what I presented. To me that is not a know-it-all but someone exhibiting Trump-like qualities. Totally out of sympathy? Seriously? You can't be serious. LOL

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 5:27pm

You haven't presented anything. You said something about sopranos not being "the small minority" I think, but if they are a minority of any kind in the genre, my point stands. 

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 7:35pm

joevitus said: "You haven't presented anything. You said something about sopranos not being "the small minority" I think, but if they are a minority of any kind in the genre, my point stands."

well, actually I have and the funny thing about this board is that you can go see it. But you won't because, as rehearsed, you don't engage with anything, you just keep saying the same thing over and again despite what anyone says. If you want to address my refutation of your point, I will respond. Otherwise you are just, to quote someone else, being insufferable, and I'd rather not waste any more time on you.

[Ravenclaw]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 8:02pm

I'm curious to know what rock musicals you think have soprano singing in them? You listed singers in the rock world who I'm not familiar with, but in the realm of rock musicals, I'm hard-pressed to think of any written for soprano voices, at least in the soprano-belter dichotomy of musical theatre. If you take "soprano" to include belting in the traditionally soprano range, that's another matter, and therein might light the discrepancy?

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 9:19pm

well in the musical theatre realm I suggested as a first step looking at the current Tony nominees for best musical, which has sopranos very well represented. If you want to take the next step I think you will find sopranos well represented in musicals in this century. But the other list may be more to the point, which is that sopranos are extremely well represented in the Grammys for rock this year and it is not atypical. 

[Ravenclaw]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 11:18pm

This year's Tony nominees? Which roles in Jagged Little Pill, Moulin Rouge, and Tina would you consider to be sopranos? And how are you defining soprano to find such roles in these shows?

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/6/20 at 11:42pm

based on the singing voices and vocal arrangements. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/7/20 at 3:38am

HogansHero said: "well in the musical theatre realm I suggested as a first step looking at the current Tony nominees for best musical, which has sopranos very well represented. If you want to take the next step I think you will find sopranos well represented in musicals in this century. But the other list may be more to the point, which is that sopranos are extremely well represented in the Grammys for rock this year and it is not atypical."

The Tonys are not  where rock is celebrated. But if you want to put all the non-sopranos who have received Grammy's--which  would include Sting, Eric Clapton, Bruce Springsteen, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Creed, U2,  Neil Young, the Foo Fighters, Santana, Jon Fogarty, and the Rolling Stones--against that list, be my guest. Some female vocalists who could be called sopranos have won Grammy's for rock performances, too, so I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I am saying that  is is much rarer. And even then, we're still in a rarified air of big names.

Indeed, if you look at any roster for any performance of rock bands playing bars, concert halls and dives across the country, you are simply going to find many more all-male groups and male soloists, and therefore far fewer soprano performers. Even among the women, you're going to find a fair share who aren't sopranos but sing in a deeper voice. It's just fact.

But  somehow, you've decided that rock musicals mark the majority of rock performances or set the style for  rock music performance. Not so. I have no difficulty agreeing that rock musicals have used soprano voices, but it was never my argument that they didn't. My argument is that rock music as a form has not primarily depended on that kind of, and therefore Spider-Man--which was trying to prove its rock bonafides by employing Bono--did not need to, either.

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/7/20 at 9:46am

joevitus said: "But somehow, you've decided that rock musicals mark the majority of rock performances or set the style for rock music performance. Not so." 

I have no idea where you got that notion; I never said that and never would.

"I have no difficulty agreeing that rock musicals haveused soprano voices, but it was never my argument that they didn't. My argument is that rock music as a form has not primarily depended on that kind of, and therefore Spider-Man--which was trying to prove its rock bonafides by employing Bono--did not need to, either."

Actually, that was not your argument. Your argument was that "It seems the antithesis of sound musical theater thinking think a show has to have anything. It's always a queston of what works for the specific show (no soprano leads in Pacific Overtures). And rock rarely uses a soprano voice, anyway." As rehearsed, I agreed with everything except your throwaway employing "rarely." That has been the cause of all of this nonsense. Now it seems that the root of the problem is your use of "rare" to mean not " primarily." That is inaccurate of course. You did not need that error to cloud your argument; sometimes you've got to know when to fold em (not sung by Kenny Rogers in a soprano voice).

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/7/20 at 10:54am

No, actually it was my argument, and that quote doesn't demonstrate otherwise. And I've clarified before that I was talking about rock as a general form, not about rock as used in rock musicals. Once again, you're wrong. Own it and move on. Or just move on.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/7/20 at 10:58am

When I am wrong, I say so. You don't. But it does not matter because the internet doesn't lie. The more you write the more Trump-like you become. Bye.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/7/20 at 11:04am

"I'm gonna get the last dis in and run away." Sorry, but no. I made it clear over and over I was talking about rock as a genre of music, not just rock as it relates to Broadway--that indeed, in using rock Broadway doesn't have to feel the need to follow non-rock traditions.

But you're moving  on.That's progress. (FYI, love that you're trying to mimic my own comment to you about your Trumpian denial, as you scamper away.)