MATILDA WAS ROBBED- Page 7
MATILDA WAS ROBBED
#150MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:18pm
I haven't seen either show live, but I can assure you that I definitely had some trouble understanding some of the lyrics on the KINKY BOOTS recording in addition to the MATILDA recording.
Part of the trouble is singing with a non-native accent. Even adults will have a hard time with this, especially if they aren't maintaining proper breathing, vowel placement, etc. Annaleigh Ashford tends to sing in a very nasal manner, which can sometimes cause her diction and enunciation to fall short - the accent makes it a bit worse. The children in MATILDA seem to have a bit more trouble with this, especially during the "tongue twister"-like parts of Minchin's score. The fact that they're very young and lack full vocal development doesn't help this, either. (I'm pretty sure that if the young lady playing Matilda were a bit older and able to manage her breathing more properly, she wouldn't have cracked during the TONY performance.)
I feel like MATILDA definitely outshone KINKY at the TONY Awards, and its sales are definitely reflecting that. But this may be due to the fact that the subject matter is more familiar to general audiences.
My only worry is that American audiences who purchase tickets to see MATILDA will be disappointed that they aren't getting the Americanized version from the 90s film. That was one of the reasons BILLY ELLIOT wasn't as successful in the States as people thought it would be - it was a bit "too British" for the average American. No one in the Midwest cared about the Miners' Strike in the UK, so why will they care about an unfamiliar (in their eyes) version of a beloved children's character?
Every living soul has got a voice - you've got to give it room and let it sing.
Updated On: 6/12/13 at 02:18 PM
Featured Actor Joined: 12/31/69
#151MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:19pm
Perhaps Matilda was a more sophisticated show. But it was dark, cold, and bitter.
Kinky was fluffy and on-the-nose, but it was warm, heartfelt, and inclusive.
And that is why I am happy Kinky Boots won.
Everybody say Billy.
KathyNYC2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/2/10
#152MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:31pm
"""I feel like MATILDA definitely outshone KINKY at the TONY Awards, "and its sales are definitely reflecting that"""".
?????? According to this site - Broadway.com
They are both selling 100% of capacity (Kinky Boots does standing room so actually 100.4)
Last week -
Matilda's grosses were:$1,138,232
Kinky Boots grosses were: $1,411,574
The week before =
Matilda's grosses were:$1,157,633
Kinky Boot's grosses were: $1,340,238
Gross percentile Potential:
Matilda:89+ %
Kinky: 98+ %
So again, I say huh?
I am not quibbling with the first part of your statement -that Matilda outshown Kinky Boots at the Tony's. That's a matter of opinion and you are more than entitled to love Matilda more than KB. But I am not seeing where you sales comments come from at all.
#153MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:35pmKathy - See joe5's post on the previous page about advance sales. That's where the statement came from.
Every living soul has got a voice - you've got to give it room and let it sing.
KathyNYC2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/2/10
#154MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:38pm
Ah..that explains it. I thought I was losing it...LOL Thanks!
That however may change..but only time will tell.
Theater'sBestFriend
Featured Actor Joined: 3/5/13
#155MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 3:21pm
"Matilda is by far...more sophisticated.... Kinky Boots is... middle-of-the-road."
Right. A show where a masculine woman is treated like a monstrous freak is sophisticated, while a show where there's a bromance between a straight dude and a genderqueer drag queen is middle of the road. Or perhaps it just seems that way because the skill of the storytelling transports the audience in a way that seems effortless.
The condescending idea that people only embraced Kinky Boots because Matilda is too dark is bunk. Plenty of shows with dark themes have won past accolades. It is simply the spin of those local press and other "experts" who failed to foresee Kinky Boots' success as Best Musical with Tony Voters (non-critic industry members), Outer Critics Circle (non-NYC critics) and Drama League (theater enthusiasts).
Now that the award season is over, maybe it's time to discreetly drop this talking point and hope all those folks will forget you insulted them in the heat of the campaign.
KathyNYC2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/2/10
Wilmingtom
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/18/11
#158MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:15pmKinky achieves exactly what it sets out to do but it is not nearly as ambitious, adventurous or original as Matilda. Matilda set its own bar very high and may not always reach it whereas the Kinky bar is set lower and therefore easier to reach. And whereas Matilda may in fact be too grim for its own good, Kinky (especially in the 2nd act) turns very preachy and the pushiness of the feel-good message ultimately made it stick to the roof of my mouth. IMHO of course.
#159MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:19pm
I think the strawman analysis of the sophistication/middle-of-the-road is as tired as the argument itself.
I can't speak to others who would argue, but to me it is about treading new ground in material. As has been discussed in numerous other threads (so excuse me for being brief), KINKY follows a tradition of LGBT-inclusive pro-tolerance exuberant pop musicals. It is a crowd-pleasing, popular example of a well-trod form for Broadway. MATILDA, while also trafficking in well-trod traditions (such as the demonic headmistress and the loving surrogate-parent teacher with no family of her own) it also touches on some specific terrain I've never seen explore, personally, on a Broadway stage. As I've written elsewhere, "Quiet" dropped my jaw, when Matilda started referencing philosophy of mind and quantum mechanics, before twisting into a deeply personal (and confessionally inarticulate) expression of an overstimulated mind essentially shutting down. Not to mention how "Naughty" plays with Joseph Campbell and the monomyth and other literary theory... The show worked my extremely intellectual side in a way that just listening to KINKY BOOTS didn't stimulate much interest at all.
I have yet to see KB and am sure I will likely have a blast when I do, but speaking for myself I found nothing in what I've seen that speaks on a deeply personal experience to something I've felt. Of course, I am answerless to anyone for whom the opposite is true, and that is the problem with sweeping generalizations. The shows worked for whom they worked, didn't for whom they didn't, to varying degrees and the like. My argument that MATILDA is more "sophisticated" than KINKY BOOTS does not mean to "condescend," it means to express that MATILDA worked for me on a more sophisticated level than what I've seen from KINKY BOOTS. I am aware that not everyone is willing to articulate such nuance, especially on these boards, but to suggest a moral high road and also castigate one argument as condescending is, in itself, a dangerous route on the high road to tread.
Words don't deserve that kind of malarkey. They're innocent, neutral, precise, standing for this, describing that, meaning the other, so if you look after them you can build bridges across incomprehension and chaos. But when they get their corners knocked off, they're no good anymore…I don't think writers are sacred, but words are. They deserve respect. If you get the right ones in the right order, you can nudge the world a little.
KathyNYC2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/2/10
#161MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:26pm
I don't think they set the bar lower at all. It was a different bar for sure... but not lower.
For me personally (and that's all I can address), it doesn't seem to me to be setting the bar higher by finding the villains and evil in your world and chasing them out of town so you can be happy. Original to chase the bad guy out of town..I can't think of a Disney Cartoon that doesn't follow this theme.
I think it's a much higher bar to create a piece where you embrace your villains, try to see where they come from and then maybe understand a little more about them and maybe even yourself along with way...and do it in a way that people leave the theater feeling good about the experience. That is NO small feat in my book.
Again, not saying that different people shouldn't prefer different things but it IS a little annoying to keep hearing that the reason I prefer Kinky Boots is that I am not as smart, as sophisticated, as intelligent, don't understand music or was swayed by Cyndi's fame.
Updated On: 6/12/13 at 04:26 PM
#162MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:32pm
A show where a masculine woman is treated like a monstrous freak is sophisticated, while a show where there's a bromance between a straight dude and a genderqueer drag queen is middle of the road.
Why not? Firstly, I'm not sure how you get the idea that Trunchbull is merely masculine and that the treatment of her seems only to be based on her appearance and not her behavior or actions. And secondly, boiling down a plot to ten-words-or-less and comparing it to the conveniently false analysis of the treatment of a villainous character doesn't seem very indicative of anything, especially when it comes to a discussion on sophistication.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
Wilmingtom
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/18/11
#163MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:43pmKathy, part of what I meant was that adapting Roald Dahl's dark children's book was, I believe, a greater challenge than adapting the feel-good movie of KB. And I certainly didn't mean to imply that those who like KB better are less smart. I adored much of KB but it seemed familiar. I'd never seen anything quite like Matilda before.
KathyNYC2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/2/10
#164MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 5:02pm
I was certainly not addressing my comments to any one person. It's just a general feeling that coming out in many Matilda posts.
I certainly see your point about adapting a book such as Matilda compared to adapting a feel good movie. I think Matilda was rewarded for that - it did win BEST BOOK. On paper it may very well be a better show. Even some of the pro-Kinky Boots people must have felt that way in order for Matilda to win the book category.
But that's only portion of the overall package of Best Musical = as presented on stage, not just as it's created. And there was the difference for many...enough to push Kinky Boots over the top to win. I personally am addicted to many of the clips from Matilda on the web from the London production. I just didn't feel the same magic in the NYC production.
That said, enough from me on this. I am moving on..(and going out to dinner..LOL)
Updated On: 6/12/13 at 05:02 PM
#165MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 5:26pm
That is true KathyNYC2, and why I only strongly believe they were robbed of Best Score.
"Right. A show where a masculine woman is treated like a monstrous freak is sophisticated"
What is sophisticated about Matilda is its writing, not the broad plot. It's the execution.
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
Theater'sBestFriend
Featured Actor Joined: 3/5/13
#166MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:07pm
"As I've written elsewhere, 'Quiet' dropped my jaw, when Matilda started referencing philosophy of mind and quantum mechanics."
And Cyndi Lauper made my jaw drop when she referenced classical Greek military history and Hebrew scripture with "the strength of Sparta and the patience of Job," and used tons of similar wit and cleverness throughout the show. She did it using bilabial explosives and open vowels that singers could sing and audiences could hear, and with feeling that drove a narrative line that makes people leap to their feet.
It's hard for a show to win Best Musical three times if it lacks merit. Maybe people should stop implying that Cyndi Lauper is not sophisticated, or that she became the first woman to win the Tony for music & lyrics only because she's popular. Doing so is indeed most condescending. By all means, praise Matilda. But do please try to do so without further gratuitously dissing Cyndi Lauper, Kinky Boots, the Tony voters, the Drama League, the Outer Critics Circle, and the public any further if you possibly can.
Please.
#168MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:33pm
Since you echoed the structure of my post, it is only fair to assume this is addressed to me. Since I assume you are then addressing to me, then, would you kindly point to where I imply "that Cyndi Lauper is not sophisticated, or that she became the first woman to win the Tony for music & lyrics only because she's popular?" Or where I "further gratuitously diss[ed] Cyndi Lauper, Kinky Boots, the Tony voters, the Drama League, the Outer Critics Circle, and the public any further?"
Otherwise, you are painting many individuals with a broad brush. Not to mention your phonetical argument, which clearly is a gratuitous shot across the bow of Minchin's lyrics and MATILDA's (admittedly underperforming) sound design, pejorative retorts which I have seeked to avoid in my comments. Doing so is indeed most condescending. By all means, praise Kinky Boots. But do please try to do so without putting words in individuals' mouths (I am not the Lorax, I do not speak for all MATILDA fans on these boards.)
Words don't deserve that kind of malarkey. They're innocent, neutral, precise, standing for this, describing that, meaning the other, so if you look after them you can build bridges across incomprehension and chaos. But when they get their corners knocked off, they're no good anymore…I don't think writers are sacred, but words are. They deserve respect. If you get the right ones in the right order, you can nudge the world a little.
Theater'sBestFriend
Featured Actor Joined: 3/5/13
#169MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:34pm
"The main criticism with Minchin is his command of prosody (or lack thereof) and his sometimes odd setting of rhythmic values to stressed and unstressed syllables, the blink-and-you'll-miss-it assault of ideas in his songs, and somewhat odd use of enjambment that can break up ideas over different melodic segments."
I stand corrected.
"There was nothing in jnb9872's that suggested that Lauper was unsophisticated (nor am I suggesting it), nor did s/he suggest that Kinky Boots lacks merit."
It wasn't about you. It was about the title of this thread: "Matilda was robbed."
"Your post is weird."
Back atcha, friend.
#170MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:39pmMatilda was one of the main contenders in this category. If it lacked merit, it wouldn't have been considered worthy of a nomination. Some people feeling that "Matilda was robbed" after the other show won is not unreasonable. It happens every year.
#171MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 10:09pm
"And Cyndi Lauper made my jaw drop when she referenced classical Greek military history and Hebrew scripture with "the strength of Sparta and the patience of Job"
Hahah, did it really or are you just name dropping a reference? That one throw away line does not compare to these lines in "Quiet", which actually detail/explore/outline in some depth two common arguments that are pondered by scientists, the first being subjective perception and the second being Einstein's most famous thought experiment:
Have you ever wondered, well I have.
About how when I say, say red, for example.
There's no way of knowing if red
Means the same thing in your head
As red means in my head, when someone says red!
And how if we are travelling at, almost the speed of light
And we're holding a light
That light will still travel away from us
At the full speed of light, which seems right in a way
---
I too was impressed at the way Minchin had Matilda reflect on these arguments. To compare it to "the strength of sparta" is just sad, lol.
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
#172MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 10:17pm
It's hard for a show to win Best Musical three times if it lacks merit.
And yet, every year we hear about how awards are meaningless and not indicative of merit and Follies and West Side Story and whatnot etc et al ad nauseum. The records are changed on the Victrola depending on how the fans of a show react to the Tonys. The tunes are changed and the scripts are flipped from "these awards are meritless" to "they finally got it right this year". Perhaps it will mean the show will be a classic (Hello, Dolly), slip into obscurity (Hallelujah, Baby), run forever (Phantom of the Opera) or close a flop (Passion). Time will tell.
The only thing that really makes me chuckle is this funny little argument that perhaps the lyrics for Matilda were simply too clever or too wordy or too "ambitious" after YEARS of criticizing multitudes of shows for being too dumb, pedestrian, inane and almost always being compared to Sondheim. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this rather silly excuse. I was listening to Matilda today with the intent on focusing on the lyrics and orchestrations and I understand the fans of Kinky Boots loving their show and praising it, but some of the criticism towards Matilda just seems like a fishing expedition with little regard to objectivity.
All this reminds me SO much of the year of Memphis and the derision towards those who were fans of the show and defended it. Except the shoe is on the other foot and suddenly very similar flaws are now celebrated strengths. It's all very surreal.
This thread had started to move towards some interesting objective discussion, but it was far too brief. I'll just finish with one word.
Orchestrations?
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
DAME
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/15/04
#173MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 10:26pmOh girl. You have worn me out.
HUSSY POWER!
------ HUSSY POWER!
After Eight
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/5/09
#174MATILDA WAS ROBBED
Posted: 6/12/13 at 10:40pm
"As I've written elsewhere, "Quiet" dropped my jaw, when Matilda started referencing philosophy of mind and quantum mechanics, before twisting into a deeply personal (and confessionally inarticulate) expression of an overstimulated mind essentially shutting down. Not to mention how "Naughty" plays with Joseph Campbell and the monomyth and other literary theory..."
How commendable.
Matilda, the quantum mechanics, monomyth musical.
Just what Broadway needs.
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