Marc Shaiman responds to Michael John La Chiusa- Page 3

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:24pm

I don't know Marc. Audra screams like a Mo'Fo.

[BroadwayBound06]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:25pm

I'm going to have to agree with LaChiusa. You can re-invent somthing over and over again, as much as you want. Entertainment is full of it. But I hardly think that adding music to a movie is hardly worth any artistic credibility. And every musical that opened this season was based on a previous work, be it movie or novel (I'm not sure about Spelling Bee). But where is the creation? I thought Caroline of Change got royally screwed last year. I'm glad that shows like Hairspray and Producers and Beauty and the Beast and the Lion King and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang give work to preformers, technicians, and orcestra members, and pay the rent for the creative team. But I don't see the substance in them. They're shows with the same lines from the movies and songs. They're fun and I enjoy them every once in a while, but they don't give new views or stir the soul. The art today seems to lie in the plays, which are also suffering from high ticket prices, people sleeping in the audience, and lack of box office sucess.

[JohnPopa]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:25pm

Yeah but LaChiusa's crowd would then point out how much more sophisticated their taunts were.

[EddieVarley]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:29pm

Can we have the guys from VH1's Strip Search join in with the mud wrestling?

[Marc Shaiman]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:31pm

please!!!

[WildhornFanatic]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:31pm

Marc, what are your thoughts on Wildhorn's music?

PS - Loved the rebuttal and I agree with everything you said in the post.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:35pm

All but a tiny handful of the greatest musicals ever written are based on some previously existing work, be it a novel, play or film. Heck, even two of Sondheim's finest works were adapted from movies (A Little Night Music and Passion). And who cares?

The only thing that matters is the execution. Just because a musical is based on something else doesn't automatically make it good or bad.

Updated On: 8/8/05 at 01:35 PM

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:36pm

I don't think you have to be a tasteless yahoo to enjoy MAMMA MIA or SPAMALOT, and I don't think that you are a snob if you loved MARIE CHRISTINE or LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA.

Over the last few months, I've heard lots of exciting theatre songs by such up-and coming talents as Steven Lutvak, Mark Campbell, Jeff Blumenkrantz and Peter Mills (and heard enough of Debra Barsha's score to RADIANT BABY to make me regret that I missed it). These songs were all tuneful, smart and by turns heartbreaking and funny. And many of these scores had interesting and risky original books.

But who are the producers that will take a chance on them?

Updated On: 8/8/05 at 01:36 PM

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:37pm

Margo, I don't think that was the point. Broadwaybound was trying to support the point of originality.


Master, I agree. That's the point I was trying to make when refering to Sondheim. Updated On: 8/8/05 at 01:37 PM

[BroadwayBound06]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:42pm

That's true Margo, Merrily was based on a play. Unfortunatly I am unfamiliar with A Little Night Music (I am very ashamed) and I don't know the Passion movie. But basing somthing on a previous work is much different than the slew of musicals which seem to just add song to the previous movie. I am saddened by the disney musicals, because they are THE movie, with the same songs, and just added tidbits. I'd like to pass judgement on Tarzan now, but I'll await to see what happens.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:46pm

Tarzan may actually be suprising. i've heard some of the dialog and it's actually pretty smart. I've only heard a bit of the music and it has lots of potential. We'll see what happens to it. I certainly wasn't looking forward to it until I heard a bit of it. No, I'm intrigued.

[BroadwayBound06]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:47pm

I just don't want it to be like Beuaty and the Beast or Lion King

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:49pm

Yeah I know! Don't hold your breath.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:49pm

TLK is Hamlet.

Hell, even Sweeney is based on something...

[pianodan]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:50pm

Mr. Shaiman,
I don't disagree with anything in your response to me (last page)! I was disputing Craig's (now Eddie's) opinion that your "screed" was issue-based and not "personal". Of course it was personal, as you said - you were offended and responded in kind!

> Sorry, but if you don't think phrases like [...] aren't wildly, personally insulting, then boy, you must be Jesus Christ himself. Let's have dinner. Meet 'cha at Angus'!! <<

Well, I don't think they're WILDLY insulting, but I'm not the one being insulted. If I can convince you I AM Jesus Christ, will you have dinner with me? :)

I said before I thought the "craft is abandoned" line is way off-base and demonstrably untrue. "Mechanical or sloppy execution" is more a matter of opinion - though how he could call HAIRSPRAY "sloppy" baffles me (I haven't seen PRODUCERS).

The "tune-positioning" line I can understand, since we know LaChiusa's M.O. is "sung-through" pieces where the score is inextricably linked with the libretto and often doesn't consist of discrete "songs". Maybe that's the kind of "craft" LaChiusa prefers, as opposed to HAIRSPRAY'S traditional "given this story, we'll have a song here, a song here, a song here" - which could be called "tune-positioning". I don't agree with MJL here either, but I'm trying to understand where he was coming from.

Just trying to shift the discourse towards the "issues"!* I may not be able to participate much more, as I have a Fringe Festival smash hit (http://www.fleetweekthemusical.com) to rehearse and orchestrate...

*As I was writing this - slowly as usual - the discussion took a turn for the interesting! Nice.

[BroadwayBound06]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:50pm

Well Sweeney was based on history, but there were many plays that Sondheim looked to. I think he took the general plot from one, and may have spiced it up a bit.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:52pm

And my point was I don't care if a musical is wholly original or if its based on a previously existing work. Originality is WAY overrated. The fact is that 95% of the musicals that were "wholly original" were major flops -- financially and more often than not artistically. The vast majority of the time, their books just don't work.

But, then look at the artistry that went into the creation of Showboat, Porgy and Bess, Guys and Dolls, Fiddler, Man of La Mancha, Forum, West Side Story, Cabaret, Sweeney Todd, etc..... Are those shows somehow less worthy because they were based on other material?

It's hard enough to craft and construct a first rate score and a first rate book, even when you're starting with previously proven material. Starting completely from scratch and creating your own characters and plot and metaphors and conflcits, just increases the odds that the show won't work 100 fold. Yes, I love Caroline and Follies and A Chorus Line and other so-called "original" shows, but I don't love them any more or less than Sweeney or West Side Story or Porgy. All I care about is the finished product and it doesn't matter to me one iota if the show is based on something else or not.

[Cages or Wings]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:52pm

Personally I'm waiting for Brian Lowdermilk to have a full production in NYC. Hopefully he will get that chance soon.

In regards to Marc's rebuttal... You were attacked and have every right to respond and defend yourself, and you did well. I personally enjoy Marie Christine and The Wild Party, but i feel like the work of LaChiusa and others like him is intentionally (and unnecesarily) esoteric. In attempt to be intellectual they come off as elitist. It's okay to entertain an audience in addition to making them think. They aren't mutually exclusive goals, even though sometimes they are treated as such by writers and composers.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:52pm

Jazzy, you know "I Won't Mind", right? This Jeff Bluemcrantz-Annie Kessler-Libby Saines song is from an unfinished musical called THE OTHER FRANKLIN (based on the relationship between Ben Franklin and his illegitamate son William) - with "Hold My Hand" (from Jeff's in-progress musical, HUSH) these songs touched me more than anything in PIAZZA (and I loved PIAZZA) -

but will I ever hear these performed on stage in a full-scale musical?

And will Peter Mills' PUSUIT OF PERSEPHONE ever come back to life?

Damn, talk about moments where I shoulda slipped my recorder in my jacket pocket....

Updated On: 8/8/05 at 01:52 PM

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:52pm

Broadway Bound, have you ever seen Lion King? Let me remind you what you just said: "I am saddened by the disney musicals, because they are THE movie, with the same songs, and just added tidbits."

Not even close.

And since it's so easy to "add songs to a movie" and have a hit, why don't you do it? Right now? Then come back here and tell us all how formulas always work and how simple it was.

You think that only because the shows that succeed make it look so easy.

[robbiej]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:58pm

'I am saddened by the disney musicals, because they are THE movie, with the same songs, and just added tidbits.'

I'm sorry, but this is blatantly untrue. BATB...yes...that was it's problem. It wasn't a reimagining of the movie...it was quite a literal translation. Disney was taken to task for it and, for their very next musical, they went to one of the most creative minds working in theatre today: Julie Taymor. They gave her complete artistic control over the piece and the result was an astonishing evening of theatre that married eastern and western theatre forms, as well as tribal sounds and storytelling with modern technology. It was simply overwhelming and moved me to no end. AIDA followed and it certainly wasn't a Disney film simply brought to life.

Ya know...I can understand people's reactions to Disney's presence on Broadway. But I will always give it to them for adjusting their artistic goals between BATB and Lion King and delivering populist entertainment that is also artistically exciting.

Posted: 8/8/05 at 2:00pm

"Sweeney Todd" is based on Christopher Bond's play "A String of Pearls." Sondheim has said that he took the plays entire structure and musicalized it almost line for line. And look what was produced! A Masterpiece!

I believe Brooklyn was completely original. And look how that turned out.

[Craig]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 2:01pm

re: addings songs to a movie doth not a hit make

Urban Cowboy
Footloose
Saturday Night Fever
My Favorite Year
The Goodbye Girl

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 2:01pm

What I don't understand is why MJLC didn't attack MAMMA MIA and the slew of juke-box musicals clogging the Broadway theatres -- they're much more damaging to the artform than musicals with original scores. I don't believe the popularity of self-referential musicals spells the end of Broadway; it's hardly a new phenomenon, and if anything, it reflects the public's current taste for irony. It's not just present in today's musical theatre, it's in all forms of popular art, from film and television to rock music.

[robbiej]

Posted: 8/8/05 at 2:04pm

Oh...and Pianodan...please get to work on taking 'Ask Me, I'll Tell' a whole step higher.