#26
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:29pm
What is this whole Fred Ebb thing I am hearing about?
Marc Shaiman responds to Michael John La Chiusa — Page 2
#27
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:30pm
https://www.broadwayworld.com/viewcolumn.cfm?colid=196
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka
#28
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:33pm
I think LaChiusa knew EXACTLY what what he doing in his OPERA NEWS article. It was written to be inflammatory and provocative.
Some of what he says is easy to dismiss as being the grousings of a bitter Betty, but I found is statements about URINETOWN and SPAMALOT on the money (and I loved URINETOWN):
"SPAMALOT, on the other hand, shares with URINETOWN the premise that musicals are stupid. If you start there where do you go? Mocking the unrealistic nature of musicals has its limits. AVENUE Q is a model of good parody, SPAMALOT is not.... it's faux faux, a parody of a parody. It not only mocks musicals - it mocks us for liking musicals."
I also think that nobody is enjoying this exchange more than LaChiusa.
Some of what he says is easy to dismiss as being the grousings of a bitter Betty, but I found is statements about URINETOWN and SPAMALOT on the money (and I loved URINETOWN):
"SPAMALOT, on the other hand, shares with URINETOWN the premise that musicals are stupid. If you start there where do you go? Mocking the unrealistic nature of musicals has its limits. AVENUE Q is a model of good parody, SPAMALOT is not.... it's faux faux, a parody of a parody. It not only mocks musicals - it mocks us for liking musicals."
I also think that nobody is enjoying this exchange more than LaChiusa.
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
Updated On: 8/8/05 at 12:33 PM
#29
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:38pm
uh, I don't know, I think over at SPAMALOT they are just trying to make you laugh...and Broadway, like anyone else, can stand to laugh at itself, no?
If you don't laugh, you tell your friends over a lovely dinner.
What's dying isn't the Broadway Musical, it's a little something that used to be called "professional courtesy"!!
m'wah!
If you don't laugh, you tell your friends over a lovely dinner.
What's dying isn't the Broadway Musical, it's a little something that used to be called "professional courtesy"!!
m'wah!
#30
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:41pm
I guess his bitterness and envy are too strong for any sense he might have about professional courtesy.
HUSSY POWER!
------ HUSSY POWER!
#31
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:42pm
DAME, ya ol' Dame, how ya' been!
#32
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:43pm
I am so good Marc. Life is good. Thank you for asking... you sweet, talented ,hussy... you.
HUSSY POWER!
------ HUSSY POWER!
Updated On: 8/8/05 at 12:43 PM
#33
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:45pm
"...and Broadway, like anyone else, can stand to laugh at itself, no?"
Sure! But I don't think SPAMALOT does it nearly as well as FORBIDDEN BROADWAY -at a fraction of the budget and and ticket price, too!
Sure! But I don't think SPAMALOT does it nearly as well as FORBIDDEN BROADWAY -at a fraction of the budget and and ticket price, too!
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
Updated On: 8/8/05 at 12:45 PM
#34
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:45pm
I also wanted to add Marc that I finnally saw the Gladd media awards on TV and what a pleasure it was to see you up there with my idol Liza.
HUSSY POWER!
------ HUSSY POWER!
Updated On: 8/8/05 at 12:45 PM
#35
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:48pm
HUSSY POWER!
------ HUSSY POWER!
Updated On: 8/8/05 at 12:48 PM
#36
Posted: 8/8/05 at 12:53pm
I for one think LaChiusa has an excellent point. I mean it's one of the reasons why Jason Robert Brown has sort of left the Broadway scene. I guarentee that if Sondheim were up and coming today, he wouldn't be able to get produced. We wouldn't have Sweeney, Overtures, or Company. It's too damn hard to try to produce something that's of any artistic merit because people are worried about it turning a profit. While that is a legitimate concern, there's a point where it's got to end. Producing broadway shows is a rediculous risk now. Ticket prices are even more rediculous. The bottom has got to fall out sometime. We can't keep going like this.
I say Bravo Mr LaChiusa for having the balls to say publicly what he thinks. One may not agree but he did do it in an intelligent way. I don't think it was bitchy or asshole-like in any way. It was what he thinks. He didn't say that any of the creators are talentless and don't have it in them to be better. But I suppose attacking one's work can be rather personal. I would really love to read Mr. Shaiman's rebuttal to the actual points he made. I'd love to hear how he sees where Mr LaChiusa went wrong. Hint-hint!!
Oh, and he didn't rip into everything. Certainly not in the last 10 years! He mentioned about 15 shows. Hardly all the shows in the last 10 years. And I saw his point on most of them. He actually praised a couple of shows also. I don't find it offensive at all. Hal Prince shares many of his views. He said "go to regional theatre, that's where the edgy work is being done". I like edgy and there's not enough of it on Broadway.
I say Bravo Mr LaChiusa for having the balls to say publicly what he thinks. One may not agree but he did do it in an intelligent way. I don't think it was bitchy or asshole-like in any way. It was what he thinks. He didn't say that any of the creators are talentless and don't have it in them to be better. But I suppose attacking one's work can be rather personal. I would really love to read Mr. Shaiman's rebuttal to the actual points he made. I'd love to hear how he sees where Mr LaChiusa went wrong. Hint-hint!!
Oh, and he didn't rip into everything. Certainly not in the last 10 years! He mentioned about 15 shows. Hardly all the shows in the last 10 years. And I saw his point on most of them. He actually praised a couple of shows also. I don't find it offensive at all. Hal Prince shares many of his views. He said "go to regional theatre, that's where the edgy work is being done". I like edgy and there's not enough of it on Broadway.
#37
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:01pm
I sat in on a talk with LaChiusa once. After having read some previous (and similar) articles he's written, I honestly expected to see a pumped-up, full-of-himself guy.
He's absolutely not. He just clearly has a love of musical theatre, a desire to craft musicals that are quality, and a desire to see this type of theatre remain at the forefront of American theatre.
It sounds snarky in the article, but I gleaned enough from him when he spoke to know he says it because he loves the form, not because he's jealous he's not getting produced.
They might not have been huge runs, but he's had several Broadway shows, the Public is producing his latest venture, and I, for one, think time is going to look back on his version of "The Wild Party" as a seriously fantastic piece of theatre.
That said, I enjoyed "Hairspray." A lot. I also saw "Spamalot" twice and love, love, love "Urinetown." I still see his point in the self-referential, self-mocking musical theatre form. It's a dead-end road and it's unfortunate that it's one of the only kinds of theatre that is being produced.
He's absolutely not. He just clearly has a love of musical theatre, a desire to craft musicals that are quality, and a desire to see this type of theatre remain at the forefront of American theatre.
It sounds snarky in the article, but I gleaned enough from him when he spoke to know he says it because he loves the form, not because he's jealous he's not getting produced.
They might not have been huge runs, but he's had several Broadway shows, the Public is producing his latest venture, and I, for one, think time is going to look back on his version of "The Wild Party" as a seriously fantastic piece of theatre.
That said, I enjoyed "Hairspray." A lot. I also saw "Spamalot" twice and love, love, love "Urinetown." I still see his point in the self-referential, self-mocking musical theatre form. It's a dead-end road and it's unfortunate that it's one of the only kinds of theatre that is being produced.
#38
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:04pm
Oh, don't worry too much, Marc...
He'll hit the mat from his own sour attitude long before you or Jerry (the "Knife") Mitchell ever has a chance to throw a "bitch slap." What a shame!
For someone who is a rising Broadway professional, he sure comes across as a rank amateur. I only wish he'd spent as much time on understanding how commercial theatre works as he did on that article. We'd all have better shows of his to listen to.
He'll hit the mat from his own sour attitude long before you or Jerry (the "Knife") Mitchell ever has a chance to throw a "bitch slap." What a shame!
For someone who is a rising Broadway professional, he sure comes across as a rank amateur. I only wish he'd spent as much time on understanding how commercial theatre works as he did on that article. We'd all have better shows of his to listen to.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
#39
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:08pm
I don't know, I THINK that if an audience in these "terrible" days heard the brilliance of any minute of "SWEENEY TODD" or pick a song, any song from "COMPANY" they would still hail Sondheim for the genius he is. And "PACIFIC OVERTURES" was tough on "general" audiences even then (in the "glory" days), as it was last year, making it no less brilliant a work from someone truly touched by the gods of theatre.
#40
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:08pm
>> pianodan - I don't think you should have given out LaChiusa's username. <<
Wayman did it first (on the other board). Anyway, Mr. L. has signed his name to most of his sporadic posts, so I don't think he was keeping it secret. If he was, I do apologize.
>> Number 2, I don't think Marc is THAT dumb to post on a PUBLIC message board and not realize that someone such as LaChiusa, himself, may see what he (Marc) wrote. Give him a little credit. <<
Exactly my point. All I'm saying is he didn't need to press the advantage, keep it going, appeal to his friends for even MORE sympathy/outrage/agreement. As Craig said, he has every right to do so - I'm just "call[ing] it petty"!
But Craig, I think you're completely wrong about this:
>> the thrust of marc's post isn't about defending hairspray, but about the issues raised in the article. <<
Say what? Almost all of Marc's retorts are specifically defending himself and his work or "attacking" LaChiusa and his work. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it was far from a substantive reply that engaged the issues.
Finally, DAME should read more carefully before insulting me:
>> You make no sense at all. None. Why the hell should he take it to private e mail? What would be the fun in that? <<
I was saying he *shouldn't* have taken it to private email, as stupid as that seems out of context...
Believe me, I respect Mr. Shaiman (and HAIRSPRAY) and especially love the fact that he posts here and elsewhere, educating laypeople and emerging professionals alike about this industry we all love. I enjoy most of Mr. LaChiusa's work but don't agree with most of his article. And now I'm wondering what the "Fred Ebb thing" was, since the article Craig linked to has had the apparently controversional section excised...
Wayman did it first (on the other board). Anyway, Mr. L. has signed his name to most of his sporadic posts, so I don't think he was keeping it secret. If he was, I do apologize.
>> Number 2, I don't think Marc is THAT dumb to post on a PUBLIC message board and not realize that someone such as LaChiusa, himself, may see what he (Marc) wrote. Give him a little credit. <<
Exactly my point. All I'm saying is he didn't need to press the advantage, keep it going, appeal to his friends for even MORE sympathy/outrage/agreement. As Craig said, he has every right to do so - I'm just "call[ing] it petty"!
But Craig, I think you're completely wrong about this:
>> the thrust of marc's post isn't about defending hairspray, but about the issues raised in the article. <<
Say what? Almost all of Marc's retorts are specifically defending himself and his work or "attacking" LaChiusa and his work. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it was far from a substantive reply that engaged the issues.
Finally, DAME should read more carefully before insulting me:
>> You make no sense at all. None. Why the hell should he take it to private e mail? What would be the fun in that? <<
I was saying he *shouldn't* have taken it to private email, as stupid as that seems out of context...
Believe me, I respect Mr. Shaiman (and HAIRSPRAY) and especially love the fact that he posts here and elsewhere, educating laypeople and emerging professionals alike about this industry we all love. I enjoy most of Mr. LaChiusa's work but don't agree with most of his article. And now I'm wondering what the "Fred Ebb thing" was, since the article Craig linked to has had the apparently controversional section excised...
#41
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:08pm
He has given us many great things to listen to. Many.
#42
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:13pm
pianodan,
I stand corrected. OOPS.
I stand corrected. OOPS.
HUSSY POWER!
------ HUSSY POWER!
#43
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:16pm
Marc, my point wasn't that Sondheim would be less brilliant, it was that he just wouldn't have been heard. The Hal Prince kind of producing doesn't really happen anymore. I was just saying that producers wouldn't produce him as much because his work does pose a higher risk of financial failure than say Mamma Mia!
#44
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:17pm
"PianoDan",
I tried to only address his HAIRSPRAY "facts" since the other writers he ATTACKS might have felt "Marc, thanks but don't bring me in to this"
His words are downright shocking towards his colleagues, not just towards my work.
Sorry, but if you don't think phrases like "All sense of invention and craft is abandoned", "Instead of crafted songwriting, there is tune-positioning" and "no matter how mechanical or sloppy the execution may be to discerning eyes and ears" aren't wildly, personally insulting, then boy, you must be Jesus Christ himself. Let's have dinner. Meet 'cha at Angus'!!
I tried to only address his HAIRSPRAY "facts" since the other writers he ATTACKS might have felt "Marc, thanks but don't bring me in to this"
His words are downright shocking towards his colleagues, not just towards my work.
Sorry, but if you don't think phrases like "All sense of invention and craft is abandoned", "Instead of crafted songwriting, there is tune-positioning" and "no matter how mechanical or sloppy the execution may be to discerning eyes and ears" aren't wildly, personally insulting, then boy, you must be Jesus Christ himself. Let's have dinner. Meet 'cha at Angus'!!
Updated On: 8/8/05 at 01:17 PM
#45
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:18pm
But Mr. Laciusa and JRB have gotten produced, several times, with the full backing of large producers and with star names in the cast and as designers/directors. They're hardly on the outside looking in as they would like people to believe.
People seem to forget that many of Sondheim's successes are from the early part of his career. He earned the trust of producers and investors early in his career and that allowed him the freedom to explore his more bold endeavors later. It seems LaChiusa wants all that freedom and trust without ever earning it, other than to constantly tout his own genius.
People seem to forget that many of Sondheim's successes are from the early part of his career. He earned the trust of producers and investors early in his career and that allowed him the freedom to explore his more bold endeavors later. It seems LaChiusa wants all that freedom and trust without ever earning it, other than to constantly tout his own genius.
#46
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:20pm
can't we just settle this with a mud wrestling match in Shubert Alley?
#47
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:21pm
As a benefit for BCEFA? That would be amazing!
#48
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:22pm
It's always a pleasure to read inspired discourse, well said and AMAZING!
I also think that Marc gave a very substantive and informed reply that did indeed engage the many issues raised.
I also think that Marc gave a very substantive and informed reply that did indeed engage the many issues raised.
#49
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:23pm
my side will have MUCH more fun cheers!
#50
Posted: 8/8/05 at 1:24pm
Nobody loves a well-constructed, smart musical comedy more than I do, but I do think there is a real hunger out there for a musical (serious or not) that DOESN'T constantly poke you the ribs and rather gets you emotionally involved with the characters. As great as the score to HAIRSPRAY is, it has the good fortune to be coupled with a solid, smart and involving book. I was bored by WICKED, but I can see why it has a fanatical following, one that is shared in a smaller way with rabid PIAZZA fans - to many of us, it's a relief to see a juicy, serious musical that is both adult and unapologetically romantic.
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
Updated On: 8/8/05 at 01:24 PM
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