Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:05pm

In light of all the rent threads and yearning for more Sondheim threads...well I have been curious about this and finally decided to start a thread.

There's no way to intelligently argue Sondheim's genius and immense contribution to theatre and well the greatness of his work.

However, every composer work usually has its fans and critics, but aside from those whose taste is not...I never hear any flaws in Sondheim's style or any of his shows ever discussed(well w/ the exception of some lyrics to I Feel Pretty in WSS)

So does Sondheim really prove to be an exception to the "nobody is perfect rule" or can especially big fans of him demonstrate even miniscule flaws in some of his work? I think for some odd reason hearing about flaws will make me more open to him, as opposed to me thinking he's some perfect robot, as sometimes I am designed to think.

this is certainly not a Sondheim bashing thread, nor do I want to hear how ppl don't like him or say he's bad when really they mean they don't like him. I'm looking for some intelligent acknowledgements of some miniscule flaws, that's all.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:10pm

Those of us who often discuss Sondheim and love his work often have critiques of flaws in lyric and presentation. It is important to me that this is kept in context, however.

Is Sondheim a "perfect robot"? No, of course not. Am I more thrilled, challenged and intrigued by his work than most others? Yes, no question.

[Flahooley]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:16pm

One of the reason Sondheim is a Genius to me is he own ability to pinpoint problems in his own work, rework them or leave them as unfixable.

I remember hearing an interview with him where he told a story (I wish I could remember more specifics) about an actor who was having trouble with one of his lyrics. He apologized to the actor, said it was not the performers problem, but a writer's problem that he wasn't able to avoid. He simply suggested that the actor do the best he can and not fret.

Sondheim's problems are often times more interesting than others artists solutions.

Sondheim has also been smart in his choices of collaborators. Who else could have turned COMPANY, FOLLIES, NIGHT MUSIC into legendary producitons but Hal Prince. He also works with the top notch book writers.

Also, Sondheim fan tend to be very intelligent people. Intelligent enough to not worship the man but rather greatly admire the work...flaws and all.






Updated On: 11/21/05 at 04:16 PM

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:19pm

I think the flaws with most of his shows are more due to shortcomings in the book or the staging, than in the scores he writes. He's long been plagued with having collaborators whom, while usually smart and creative and competent, just aren't up to his level in terms of clarity, inventiveness, coherency or, to put it out there, sheer genius.

I would call most of the works he's associated with flawed in one way or another, but I'm hard pressed to name many instances where the flaws are due to his contributions (and, in fact, in MANY instances, he's written songs to fill in the gaps, cover up failings or help cohere plot points in a show that his book writer couldn't figure out how to fix).

[Sumofallthings]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:22pm

The reason Sondheim is such a fantastic composer is in part the sheer amount of time he dedicates. He would spend days on a line or a stanza. It's extremely tedious but the results speak for themselves.

Some problems Sondheim falls into is that I feel he doesn't always know when to end a song. Some songs, especially in Into The Woods are filled with unnecessary exposition. I'll look at my libretto and cite some places soon.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:44pm

Just to be more specific about how his book writers have sometimes let him down:

-- The main reason ANYONE CAN WHISTLE is rarely produced and has never gotten a major revival is mainly due to the highly experimental, absurdist book from Arthur Laurents which, while certainly interesting in several spots, is also incoherent in others. Laurents attempted to write a piece so radical and innovative and ambitious that it ended up being beyond his own skills and talents as a writer -- he couldn't figure out how to make it work as a whole and it doomed the entire project, including a fine score from Sondheim.

-- when people criticize COMPANY for being dated and too sitcom-ish, that's due to Furth's episodic book which was adapted from a group of one-act sex comedies he had written. Furth's book, as it is, is trite and unproduceable. Sondheim's lyrics have so many meaningful and relevant things to say about about relationships, marriage, the single life, commitment, and loneliness that it gives depth and resonance to Furth's superficial framework which makes the show thoroughly worthwhile to experience.

-- FOLLIES is a brilliant show, but it's never been a perfect show due to James Goldman's melodramatic, whiny book with it's cop-out of an ending. Sondheim's ingenius score allows the characters to express themselves in an incisive, multi-layered poetic way which they seem incapable of in Goldman's dialogue. The four "follies" numbers which Sondheim wrote give us more insight into the characters than anything Goldman writes. FOLLIES is a masterpiece in spite of its book not because of it.

-- SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE won the Pultizer and is one of Sondheim's greatest works -- but the chief criticism one constantly hears is that Act I and Act II (100 years later) don't comfortably fit together and some have suggested (including some very respected theatre professionals) excising Act II completely, feeling that Act I is complete on its own. All the blame for this carping must be placed in the hands of book writer (and original director) James Lapine and him alone. Sondheim's score is ravishing beginning to end -- IMO the finest he ever wrote.

Updated On: 11/21/05 at 04:44 PM

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:46pm

Now, if we agree that Sondheim's collaborators are to blame...doesn't that put Sondheim in the blame as well...aka, he doesn't collaborate well? If his music isn't servicing the story, that is a problem.

What do you think?

[clarkstallings]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:47pm

It's painfully obvious that Stephen Sondheim will standout as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Broadway composers/lyricists of all time. I do believe that nobody's pefect however. Sondheim appeals to me not so much because his music is the greatest, but rather he is brave enough to attack some rather odd material and turn it into something that can have a relatively universal appeal, rather than a dust cult following. There are a handful of composers who, when it comes to melody, write stuff that appeals to me more than Sondheim (Kander, Cy Coleman, Menken(when the music is allowed to stand alone)). These composers write for shows that are more conventional so I must give props to Sondheim for attacking demon barbers, Presidential assassins, and an amalgamation of fairy tales with a message. Besides "Into the Woods" and "...Forum," I've never heard any Sondheim music that I find to be more exemplary than other great composers. It's his subject matter and lyrics that set him apart.

[GYPSY1527]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:48pm

For that critque alone, I love you Margo. You said exaclty what I would have said but in a clear, concise and educated mannar. You rock!

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:55pm

Not to bash Sondheim, but I havne't found a complete score of his that I "love." I enjoy Company and Into the Woods, but I couldn't just sit down and listen to it all the way through. Although, I think I'd really enjoy Sweeny, so we'll see.

Do you think there is a reason why Sondheim doesn't write big show stopping numbers? Is that just not his style?

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 4:57pm

Thank you Sum and Margo. Penguin and flah, I'm sorry if it came across that I was saying you all think he's a perfect robot, b/c I think his flaws or flaws within some of his shows are so(prob understandably) rarely discussed that I just thought it would be interesting to hear some specific examples, and so far it has. Unfortunately I am not all that and certainly more familiar w/ Sondheim shows than others, but I think I got a lot out of what you said Margo. Particularly w/ what you said about Follies, can't say I know much about the show, but I think I remember you including it in perhaps 10 of the greatest bway shows ever, or I know you certainly consider it that good, and it's always great to hear ppl be objective and unbiased and able to criticize some of their favs or some they consider to be among the best.

But I didn't know that about Sondheim how hard he works to correct his flaws, and I do hafta say that makes me respect him more.

I'm enjoying getting specifics and learning from them, keep them coming!

[kgee30]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 5:06pm

Interesting that his collaborations with Hugh Wheeler seem to be (to me) the strongest -- Sweeney and A Little Night Music are definitely my favorite shows to *see*, and my top two to listen to -- and couldn't be more different from each other. The depth and span of those two shows alone are enough for me to write off any flaws; I've never found him too cold or intellectual, or too analytical, etc. -- the man knows how to write a perfect line, and gorgeous music, and you never get the feeling he's being lazy about it -- he never settles for the easy way through. That alone has had an enormous influence on me over the years, and is one reason I consider him an "artist" of the first degree.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 5:12pm

Touchme,

By all accounts, he's a great collaborator, very conscientious and flexible and helpful where he can be. But, in creating a new musical, everybody has his or her job to do. It's not Sondheim's job to write the books of his shows -- if he could do it himself, I imagine that he would. But he's long said he can't -- that his attempts at writing dialogue over the years have always come out stilted and pallid (his one nonmusical for Broadway, "Getting Away With Murder" -- written with George Furth, of all people -- was panned across the board and only lasted for two weeks).

If his book writer created dialogue that sounds like something out of a bad soap opera, what's he supposed to do? He's said he can't do any better with dialogue himself, so his way of trying to fix things is to write a song that expresses the emotions and feelings that the book is trying to say in a more artful and clear manner. Wanna understand Sally's feelings for Buddy? Don't listen to the Goldman scene, listen to "In Buddy's Eyes" that captures her feelings more substantively and completely than anything in the book. Wanna know what the wisecracking character Joanne in COMPANY is really about? You could listen to the bad sitcom banter she has to deliver as she swills cocktails, or you could just listen to "The Ladies Who Lunch," which manages to bring that character into sharp focus for the audience -- by the time she's finished, you KNOW what she's all about.

Now Sondheim's job would be much easier and his shows even better than they are if his book writers were capable of the same artistry he is. And hey, Hugh Wheeler did a masterful job writing the books for both A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC and SWEENEY TODD (and Larry Gelbart and Burt Shevelove's book for FORUM is, if anything, actually BETTER than Sondheim's score for the show, which is not nearly light and breezy enough for the material -- it was his first show doing both music and lyrics, so he still had a few things to learn), so his collaborators haven't always undermined the material.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 5:22pm

I am an enormous Sondheim fan and have been most of my life. However, I find the score to BOUNCE extremely flawed. Hands down his weakest work ever. I saw the show twice and hoped the score would grow on me, but after listening to it numerous times, I have to say it is one I will rarely revisit. I hope that he does not leave this show as his last contribution to the American Musical cannon.

[kgee30]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 5:35pm

Ugh; Bounce. I was bored by the story, and the music did nothing to enliven it. Something fundamental was missing from that show -- I wish they would let it die and move on to something else.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 5:38pm

I think it is a good (or should I say BAD) example of how Sondheim did not even save the show from a weak book with a brilliant score. The whole show seemed misconceived and unfocused.

[Plum]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 6:14pm

Do you think there is a reason why Sondheim doesn't write big show stopping numbers? Is that just not his style?

Rentboy, you haven't listened to Follies, have you? At some points it's just showstopper after showstopper:

The "In Buddy's Eyes", "Who's That Woman", "I'm Still Here", "Too Many Mornings" sequence is magnificent, and somehow the "Buddy's Blues", "Losing My Mind", and "The Story of Lucy and Jessie" combination manages to be even better. Torch songs, patter songs, pastiche songs- it's all there, and done so masterfully it's actually breathtaking.

[GovernorSlaton]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 6:29pm

And, speaking of big show-stopping numbers, what about:

-Ladies Who Lunch
-Being Alive
-There Won't Be Trumpets
-Someone in a Tree
-Please Hello
-Epiphany
-Franklin Shepard, Inc.
-We Do Not Belong Together
-Last Midnight

My feelings on Bounce: I didn't see the show in Washington, so I don't have an opinion of the show or how it played then, but I feel the score is, while different in many respects from his other scores, marvelous. The songs are clever, bright, hummable, and do a great job of telling the story (You, Boca Raton) as well as containing some great stand-alone numbers (What's Your Rush, Talent). Sondheim has said he continues to work on it, and hopefully it'll make it's way to Broadway, but I find it wonderful as is.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 6:30pm

Friends and acquanitances who saw the original production of FOLLIES have all told me that Michel Bennett's staging of "Who's That Woman" (aka "The Mirror Number") was perhaps the greatest showstopper they've ever seen in decades of theatregoing.

And Plum is right, the whole "Ah Paree/Rain on the Roof/Broadway Baby" section stops the show, "I'm Still Here" is one of the great showstoppers ever written (there's a reason every cabaret singer over the age of 40 does the number in her club act), and "In Buddy's Eyes," "Buddy's Blues," "Could I Leave You?" and the 4 "follies" numbers are all standouts capable of stopping the show on any given night.

Beyond FOLLIES, I'd certainly call "Comedy Tonight" (FORUM), "Everybody Ought To Have A Maid" (FORUM -- it often gets encored), "Side By Side" (COMPANY), "The Ladies Who Lunch" (COMPANY), "Being Alive" (COMPANY), "Franklin Shepard Inc." (MERRILY), "Putting It Together" (SUNDAY) and several others showstoppers and there are a dozen or two more I would say definitely standout and receive sustained applause.

Updated On: 11/21/05 at 06:30 PM

[Plum]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 6:42pm

"Sunday" still manages to stop me dead almost every time I hear it; it's easily one of the best Act I closers ever.

[GClef2]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 7:05pm

Sondheim uses imperfection to create a new different type of perfection. His originality comes from the diversion from what traditional Musical Theater is. Listen to "No one Is Alone" from Into the Woods. The song is a sweetly bellowed ballad. But, within the score, there are many Tugs and Pulls within rhythms and patterns. The chords almost always include a dissonant suspension. The Complexity of the Music itself is a new form of perfection. Rogers, Loesser and Webber all write music as an accompaniment to the vocals. Sondheim's accompaniment adds an entirely new dimension to the piece, making the songs more like art songs. Operatic, in a way. This is why Sondheim is so different. God, I just love him.

[Danielm]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 7:20pm

I'm glad to read this string. Sondheim actually has several scores that I love. The show that really got me hooked, "Company" continues to be one of my favorite scores. I've listened to it over and over since I first bought it when I was 13. Also, I love the score of "Merrily We Roll Along", though I don't care for the show, also "A Little Night Music" and "Sweeney Todd". Of course, the main problem with many of his shows is that I can't play the score while I'm working or reading or doing something else because they need my attention.

The show of his that I like the least is "Passion". But I don't think it's the fault of his score, though it is perhaps too somber, it's because it makes me uncomfortable because it's too close to some things I've experienced.

[Danielm]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 7:22pm

I personally think that "Sunday in the Park With George" needs the second act. The first act, while beautiful and moving, is incomplete, the lessons are learned in the second.

[Isabella2]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 8:03pm

Sondheim's flaw is that his work is too sophisticated for those who want to see pure entertainment (such as the rockettes). His work has such depth, beauty and richness and he doesn't hide his work behind fancy lights and dances (at least not that i'm aware of).

As for the whole dialouge thing, maybe i misread it or something but i'm not sure what you mean when you say that sondheim can't fix the dialouge given to him. Doesn't he write all the lyrics to his songs? Why coulsn't he rewrite dialouge.

Sondheim may seem like a machine of perfection but even in the passion dvd's commentary there have been more than a few times when he tried to do something that didn't work out the way he wanted. Example, Giorgio's song "Is this what you call love?" he thought was too clumsy. Also the flashback sequence didn't work out the way he wanted either.

[Plum]

Posted: 11/21/05 at 8:06pm

Isabella, dialogue and lyrics are two different things. Do you speak in verse? I didn't think so. If the two were so similar, Sondheim would be a brilliant playwright, and Edward Albee would be a master lyricist. It just doesn't work that way, any more than great prose writers can also write great poetry and vice versa.