Sondheim Flaws--a discussion — Page 4

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#76

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 11:18am

jasonf & BSoBW2 --- Not to turn this into another "Betsy-bashing" thread, but if you only know this song sung by strident sopranos who then proceed to negate the character's inner thoughts by turning her into a ditz for the rest of the show, I say...

Try listening to Judy Collins version of "Green Finch," sung with her trademark wistful, melancholy approach... and in a slightly lower key, with a beautiful arrangement.

This song became one of my favorites by Sondheim as a result.

"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."

blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22

#77

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 11:19am

The trick with green Finch is to not make it self-conscious.

She is talking to a bird, not about herself. The audience will GET it...she doesn't need to add it in until the last verse...so, if this song is done right, we get to learn that she is a free spirit, loves animals, ponders herself, loves to sing, lives a dark life, wants to learn how to deal with her dark life. There is A LOT in this song that most Johanna's don't get -- mainly because they usually cast one who can sing but not act. The current Sweeney running has a fantastic one, who (at least when I saw it) showed all of these emotions seemlessly.

My cage has many rooms,
Damask and dark.
Nothing there sings,
Not even my lark.
Larks never will, you know,
When theyre captive.
Teach me to be more adaptive.

Green finch and linnet bird,
Nightingale, blackbird,
Teach me how to sing.
If I cannot fly,
Let me sing.

"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'" -- unknown

#78

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 11:23am

Green finch was the first song I found myself humming after seeing the Doyle production of ST...

#79

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 11:32am

Best12bars --

Sorry about that. I got my 50s icon B&W avatars confused -- MB is Marlon; you're Monty.

"What a story........ everything but the bloodhounds snappin' at her rear end." -- Birdie [http://margochanning.broadwayworld.com/] "The Devil Be Hittin' Me" -- Whitney

#80

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 11:42am

"What does the song ultimately tell us about Joannah's character? That she's caged and wants to get out"

It also tells you about her sexuality -at this point she is not caged" that does not happen until later-"my cage has many rooms/ damask and dark/nothing there sings/not even my lark", is surely about a lot more than just being under the watchful eye of her guardian...that's why I love the way that Johanna uses the cello in this production...

#81

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 12:16pm

I'm one of his biggest fans.... but I never liked the lyric "or maybe he's a farmer" in There Won't Be Trumpets.

Also, I know why it's great.. but I hate the SONG "Anyone Can Whistle". I wont go into why.

#82

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 12:30pm

I don't believe it's a flaw, but a criticism I usually hear about Sondheim is that his music isn't hummable. When did "hummable" become a requirement for a score to be good? I hear this all the time, and from mainstream critics: "You don't walk out of the show humming anything..." There's time and place for catchy tunes a la Jerry Herman that do stick with you as you exit the theater, but it annoys me no end that Sondheim gets slammed for producing sophisticated music that not every Average Joe/Jane is going to be able to appreciate, especially upon one listen. It always reminds me of the Emperor in "Amadeus" slamming Mozart's work for having "too many notes." It's a ridiculous criticism.

#83

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 1:06pm

Wow--so this is what it feels like to be dead hmm? I really hate when I don't exist but remain unaware of it--happened recently in another situation, and well sometimes I'm having extremely bad days and I say I wish I didn't exist today and somehow I've accomplished that but have been unaware! Thank you for enlightening me.

"If there was a Mount Rushmore for Broadway scores, "West Side Story" would be front and center. It snaps, it crackles it pops! It surges with a roar, its energy and sheer life undiminished by the years" - NYPost reviewer Elisabeth Vincentelli

#84

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 3:17pm

I agree about the hummable criticism. It's ridiculous. I also happen to think Sondheim writes a lot of music that's "catchy". I often find myself breaking into his songs as I'm driving.

I also have to say that when I've done a show I usually can't enjoy listening to the music just for pleasure Sondheim is the exception. "Sweeney Todd" was a bear to learn but it's one of the few shows I've done that I can still just lay back and listen to. I can't stand to listen to "Joseph and the Amazing..." or "Barnum".

Yes, we do need a third vampire musical.--Little Sally, Gypsy of the Year 2005.

#85

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 3:20pm

I'm not sure if he does it on purpose (probably not...just his style of composing) But in every musical he's done...there's a "sondheim moment" that always sounds very similir to Into the Woods....like the 2 beats after the opening line...Once upon a time (beat beat) I dunno hahah. it's just something I've noticed. but he is pure genius. love him,

#86

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 5:52pm

The hummable thing is just ridiculous, I won't even acknowledge that because all I have to do is point to Not While I'm Around or Too Many Mornings (among DOZENS of other songs for something hummable).

As for the Green Finch debate -- I am ABSOLUTELY willing to admit the song could grow on me, especially if it's done well in the new revival which I hope to see in the next month. I've heard several singers' versions of the song, and I've never heard one that I've liked.

best12bars - I don't think it's much of a stretch for Johanna to be turned into a ditz from what's in the text of the show. Maybe "ditz" isn't the right word, but someone who is not at her full mental capabilities. If nothing else, her rambling during "Kiss Me" is NOT the talkings of an intelligent (or alternately, sane) woman. I don't have the libretto in front of me, but the line "I knew you would come one day even though I did not know your name" - or something like that...I mean, isn't she basically Philia from Forum? Lovely, and that's about it? I don't think it's even necessary for her to be any more complex than that. We have two EXTREMELY complex characters already at the center of the drama -- honestly none of the other characters are all that intriguing either, so why should she be?

I hope you all take this for what I mean it to be - an intelligent debate, not a bashing or anything like that. Honestly, I would love to be truly convinced the song is worthwhile and Johanna is more than what I think she is, because it would just make the show more perfect for me than it already is.

Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.

#87

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 6:49pm

By far Sondheim has always had problems with the books.

As has been said, only Hugh Wheeler and Larry Gelbart/Burt Shevelove have been up to the standard. However, with the exception of the character of Elaine (who is an unnecessary idiotic addition, simply added to draw a quick and easy parallel between George and Dot's relationship), I think James Lapine's work in Sunday in the Park With George is stunning. Into the Woods also doesn't quite have the book problems that are often spoken about.

Goldman, Furth, Weidman, Lapine...they just don't match the brilliance of the music.

However, I read that Sondheim did very little research for the shows he did with Weidman. For Pacific Overtures, especially, most of the material was handed to him on a platter, pre-prepared by Weidman. Sondheim ran with it, but I have to give props to Weidman for that. However, Sondheim's work in those shows far outshines Weidman's (with the exception of perhaps the Texas Book Depository scene in ASSASSINS, which stops a Sondheim show with Dialogue).

And just for all those "Sondheim is a great lyricist, but a mediocre (or worse) composer" people out there:

The Great Hal Prince once said that while Sondheim is a good lyricist, his true brilliance comes in his music.

I have to agree. I love his lyrics, but it's his compositions that really pull me in...

#88

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 6:57pm

"If nothing else, her rambling during "Kiss Me" is NOT the talkings of an intelligent (or alternately, sane) woman."

I would disagree - she is probably beside her self with worry a) because Anthony is in the house, and she's worried he might be discovered
b)the Judge has "proposed" to her, which fills her with horror and disgust
c) In part II she is excited at what has happened after Anthony has kissed her and their resolution to run away and still for all the reasons above

I think she can be forgiven for "rambling", given the circumstances. However, she is a gutsy character she defies her "father" by dropping the key from her window to allow Anthony entry to the Judge's house and she does away with Fogg - I'm not sure that Philia would have the mental wherewithal to deal with that

In this production it is quite pronounced.

Having directed Sweeney - I understand that both Anthony and Johanna's parts can be dismissed as ingenue fodder, but with strong actors, you can make them interesting for the audience....and provide some much needed light and goodness compared to the darkness that surrounds the other characters.

Updated On: 11/23/05 at 06:57 PM

#89

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 7:09pm

When it boils down to it, "hummable" really means "can we make hit songs out of this?"

My guess is it boils down to critics and especially producers from a bygone era where they were always looking to make more money off of a show. They used to get nervous if they thought that Streisand, Sinatra, Ella and the like, weren't going to record the songs.

But the bottom line is MOST Broadway songs today (thank GOD) aren't recorded by Britney, Christina, Pink, etc. So, it's a moot point whether or not the song is "hummable." If the show is good and appeals to enough people, the "hummable factor" isn't really important.

Not like it used to be, anyway.

"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."

blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22

#90

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 7:21pm

"Passion (BBCish book, ultra-modern (almost atonal) score)

Into the Woods (farce book, romantic score -- with a few exceptions)

Anyone Can Whistle (need we even go into this incongruency?)"

Certainly a point of view, but far from conclusive. I don't recognize any of your descriptions - and Passion "atonal"? I'm not so sure about that one - SJS has said that he's not attracted to atonal music and is tonal oriented, so I'd be surprised about and obviously having heard it myself I would disgree.

#91

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/22/05 at 9:06pm

One of Sondheim's musical mentors Milton Babbitt is a big proponent of atonality, but Sondheim has said he never felt he quite grasped atonal music or really enjoyed it. So I'd agree with you, Fiatlux, that Passion wouldn't be considered an atonal score. I'm actually really curious why somebody would think it's atonal at all...

And I've read that yes, Johanna is supposed to be crazy. Especially by the end of the play. I don't think the libretto upholds her craziness though. I love the song Green Finch and I kind of prefer when people choose to play her not crazy and sing it normally.

What kind of amuses me about the play is that pretty much all of the characters in it are a certain type of character and that is their feature. Anthony is the melodrama hero, the Judge the evil villain, the Beadle the menacing underling... with the exception of Sweeney and Mrs. Lovett, of course, who are fully realized characters in a sea of creepy grinning faces. But I always felt there was a lot to the Johanna character too. She's interesting.

yr ronin,
joey

#92

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 9:37am

I find Johanna interesting, as well. It's possible to pigeonhole her character as being the romantic "pale maiden in a tower" waiting to be rescued by a prince, but the scene at Fogg's asylum undoes that once and for all. Since that's not depicted in the OBC recording, I was really shocked when I saw it on the DVD for the first time.

And to use a horribly strained metaphor for the two acts of Sunday in the Park With George, think of them as the two lenses on a pair of 3-D glasses. You're not going to see the complete image without both of them. Both Georges are skewed and incomplete until the revelation the ghost of Dot brings. If you just keep Act 1, what have we learned? That artists sacrifice everything for their art? That's good, but the way the show turned out as a whole was better.

#93

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 10:30am

I have never thought of Johanna as a throwaway character or underdeveloped in the least. I just find her terribly misinterpreted in many cases by actresses and directors.

But it's a juicy role... And it's all there in the writing.

She's an abused 16-year-old girl. Yes, 16 is her EXACT age not a guess, and it's in the writing. Mrs. Lovett says that Barker was sent away to jail, taken from his loving wife "leaving her with nothing but grief and a year old kid." Then Todd later laments being sent away for 15 years on a trumped up charge. That makes Johanna exactly 16 years old in this story, when he returns.

She went to live with the judge as a baby, and he raised her (if you can call it that) by barely letting her see the light of day. This is child abuse. You don't keep children trapped inside a house to "shield them from the world." Johanna isn't a ditz at all. She has been mentally abused. What little education she had probably came from the judge himself. He has taught her what the world is like, from his own warped perspective. She has NO social skills to speak of. She's not insane, or mentally handicapped, she just has no first-hand perception of the world outside. She can't run around all melodramatic, having never seen a melodrama in her life. She is a pale, walking ghost of a girl... forgotten and locked in her "cage" waiting for God knows what. And she's now in the advance stages of puberty, and has no frame of reference to help her through it (mentally or physically). The fact that she sees Anthony from her window and has a sexual awakening of sorts is both joyous and tragic at the same time. This is why her lyrics in "Kiss Me" are so jumbled and (in my eyes) very sad. She doesn't know how to behave or what to say to him. She's never spoken to a boy (or likely any person) at length other than the judge.

Anyone who plays her as a parody just isn't getting it at all... and I personally find that approach offensive for such a tragic character.

EDIT: There is humor in the lyrics of "Kiss Me" for Johanna, but this unintentional humor arises out of the sudden situation and her lack of abilities in being able to deal with it. It shouldn't be played like a Carol Burnett Show sketch of "Suzannah of the Mounties."

"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."

blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22

Updated On: 11/23/05 at 10:30 AM

#94

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 12:30pm

I've always thought Johanna being able to speak at all is impressive (given the conditions). For me, she is a VERY intelligent girl -- who should never be played for laughs as the "ditz" of the show.

"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'" -- unknown

#95

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 7:24pm

best12bars -- well, you convinced me Kiss Me is more than I thought it was. I STILL don't think Green Finch would come out of her mouth though - it's too advanced a thought for her, even under your analysis. And I still don't like the melody.

It definitely gives me something to think about though the next time I see Sweeney...

Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.

#96

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 7:53pm

Just a thought- maybe Johanna reads a little.

And talking with popcultureboy, I came up with something about Sondheim that's not so much a flaw as an omission- he hasn't really integrated dance very much into many of his shows, especially after Follies. And I'm a sucker for big dance numbers, which is why I think I might die of joy if I ever see a really good Follies production.

#97

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 7:57pm

it's funny how i just realized the similarities between johanna and the judge and rapunzel and the witch from into the woods. I guess you could could say that rapunzel and the witch are the humourous version of johanna and the judge.

#98

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 7:58pm

jasonf --- Thanks! Honestly, I wasn't trying to change your opinion, just explain my own. But if it helped shed light on Johanna, then I'm glad.

As far as the advanced language of the lyrics coming out of a 16-year-old, I think I understand that as well. And it's justified, at least in my own mind.

First of all, Johanna wouldn't talk like a typical 16-year-old. She doesn't even know what that is. The way I see it, the judge has educated her to some degree, and perhaps taught her to read. Or at least he read to her occasionally. I know, that's an assumption here, but it would definitely explain her behavior and manner of speaking (and singing) these lyrics completely.

What little Johanna has learned about the world has come from literature... what little she knows about love has come possibly from poems, sonnets, novels, etc. Certainly not any first-hand experience. She would have to imagine how romantic behavior was physically acted out, having never seen it before herself. I'm sure the judge would have kept a keen eye on exactly what and how much she was exposed to, but Johanna could have spent her days this way, with book in hand (and dictionary handy), or at least in active thought about any literature she was ever exposed to via the judge. The fact that she first sings about the green finch and the linnet bird... they almost sound like they leapt right out of an old poem or love sonnet.

I know... I'm an actor at heart... I think hard and long about a character's background, personal history, etc. Why they say and do what is written...

But when I think about Johanna as a character, she makes me very sad. She's so lost... and damaged... but she is a good person at heart.

EDIT: Plum-- you posted the "reading" thing before I did! I was busy writing this, but we're thinking alike. Cool.

EDIT2: Isabella2--- Yes! I totally see the similarities between Johanna/Rapunzel and the Judge/the Witch. Well done!

"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."

blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22

Updated On: 11/23/05 at 07:58 PM

#99

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 8:16pm

i don't know how to get any other version of green finch and linnet bird. I can only find the one with sara rice. Does anyone have any names that i could search for who does this song?

#100

re: Sondheim Flaws--a discussion

Posted: 11/23/05 at 8:26pm

There's another version on "A Celebration At Carnegie Hall", sung by Harolyn Blackwell. I'm begging you, get it legally.

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