Sondheim Flaws--a discussion- Page 5

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/23/05 at 8:29pm

Isabella2---The one that really got me thinking was recorded by Judy Collins on an album called "Running for my Life." I think it's out of print now, but she also sang "Pretty Women" on it.

She has such a wistful, thoughtful voice... she's too "mature" for the song, but even if she's not right for the character of Johanna, she brought out the lyrics for me in a way that hadn't been done before. And I love the arrangement of it, too.

Hopefully you can find it used somewhere. It's worth getting for both Sondheim songs. I think this was her follow-up album to "Judith" where she had the surprise hit version of "Send in the Clowns" on it. She probably decided to record these songs from Sweeney as a result of that success.

Updated On: 11/23/05 at 08:29 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/23/05 at 8:36pm

best12bars -- it's available on itunes...

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/23/05 at 8:58pm

jasonf--- Thanks! I didn't know that.

[Isabella2]

Posted: 11/23/05 at 10:31pm

you can sleep soundly friends, i get most of my music through either paid cds or downloading from the itunes store. Thanks a bunch for the tips.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 5:04pm

Hopefully no one minds my bumping this thread from a few months ago, but I read through it today and it's SO interesting to read what you've all said.

In particular, the discussion of Johanna and whether "Green Finch and Linnet Bird" is necessary was quite enlightening. Before having seen the Sweeney Todd revival, I too was of the mindset that it's a pretty but ultimately unnecessary song. It introduces Johanna's character and Anthony's desire for her, but viewed from the mindset that her character has been abused and is generally unacquainted with outside life (except, possibly, though reading), it becomes so much more than that. It's a wonderful observation that the romanticized lyrics could be based on sonnets that she's read. I thought that Lauren Molina performed the song beautifully... she had a wonderful nervous sort of energy and was winsome but a bit awkward. Thinking about Johanna's history makes her seemingly crazy behavior during "Kiss Me" more understandable as well. Given what she's presumably endured under the Judge's care, saying "I knew I'd be with you one day / Even not knowing who you were" isn't as difficult to understand. She's an ingenue, but she isn't stupid... to play her as one would play Filia in Forum seems a pretty serious misinterpretation of the character (although, to be fair, it may depend on the production).

In regards to the Acts I and II problem of Sunday in the Park with George-- what fascinates me so much is that this is a show that I've had to discover in layers. At first, I thought that Act 1 was vastly superior and would listen to it almost exclusively. Act I is a wonderful story in itself and I find it easier to understand, so it isn't difficult to get stuck on just that part. Act II doesn't stand alone and requires a lot more thought, but once you get it you've finally gotten the play as a whole. Once you understand the theme of legacy and what you create and leave behind for subsequent generations, you can finally understand the actions of the characters in both acts. And then... well, it's hard to stop thinking about it, which is what I'm going through now.

Anyway, so as not to be *completely* off-topic, here's a potentially stupid question: if it's pretty widely agreed that Sondheim's score and lyrics are generally superior to the book-writing of his collaborators, could he maybe write an entirely sung-through show? Much easier said than done, I'm sure. I would imagine that the book writer structures the show, but so many of his songs advance the plot and carry almost all of the emotional impact... if his problem is just with writing dialogue (which he does so well with in songs), could that be bypassed? This might just be springing from my general lack of knowledge about the contributions of book writers.

Edit: ugh, not the most articulate post. My apologies for that. Updated On: 3/14/06 at 05:04 PM

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 6:34pm

According to opinions he's expressed in books and such I've read, he doesn't like excessive recitative. He thinks sung through shows are pretty dreadful.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 6:37pm

Good to know... I thought that it might be something like that.

[daspazoo]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 6:44pm

"Green Finch." The conjectures we, as an audience make about Joanna's mental state wouldn't be possible without this song. She sings "How can you jubilate sitting in cages?" She is clearly identifying with the birds as she considers herself to be just as caged as they are. However, she wants them to teach her how she still be so happy and carefree as she envisions the birds are, by the music they make even when they're caged. Yes we know how she got to be trapped from earlier information, but this song is really our only clue as to how that AFFECTS her. Without this set-up, her behavior in the show later would seem erratic and come out of nowhere. I think it's important to remember that character development is a completly acceptable reason for a song in a musical, even it's not advancing the plot 'per-se'.

And act two of SUNDAY? I'll forgive this act any flaws, since it is the material that gave us "Move On".

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 6:49pm

I don't see where the confusion is with this song. She sings a song about singing birds being trapped in cages, making an obvious metaphor to herself, and setting up the plot so that Anthony can decide to free her. The song is completely necessary. The only song I can think of off the cuff that honestly adds nothing to the show is "By the Sea", which apparently Sondheim would like to replace.

*goes back to spinning*

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 6:58pm

But without it, the show's star, Lansbury, would would have been sans a solo in the second act. And its character comedy is a necessary relief from the grim story surrounding it. Leave well enough alone, Stephen.

Allison MacKenzie
Peyton Place, New Hampshire

[bill mobley]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 7:11pm

I don't mind perfect robots, as long as they cannot fight good also. It's most frustrating to have a person who is perfect in some artistic way, but can also kick your butt too.
I'm so glad for this thread because I've always wanted to say this, but couldn't bring myself to dissing such a great songwriter as Stephen Sondheim. I have always found the songs "Children Will Listen," and "No One is Alone" too pop for the show "Into The Woods." They seemed thrown in to make the show more accessible.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 7:16pm

Children Will Listen is perhaps the song that ties the entire message together. The whole show has an incorporated theme regarding exactly what this song entails. I also disagree on No One Is Alone. I find it somber and quite "un-pop". I'm sorry but these songs have quite a relevancy to the show and one of the most obvious and important aspects of the show

Updated On: 3/14/06 at 07:16 PM

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 7:18pm

Listen to the British Version of "No One is Alone". Decidedly un-pop.

Bill, I don't get it. Is Sondheiim supposed to fight crime or something?

Hunter, you're right, but the whole Lovett character stands slightly outside the story. I think he doesn't want to cut having a song there. He just wants to write a better song.

[WickedGeek28]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 7:27pm

Sondheim would never purposely write a "pop" song and if he did he certainly wouldn't be doing it for "accesible" or commercial reasons. That's everything against what he stands for.

[bill mobley]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 7:31pm

Ronin, I was just joking around. I was responding to the "Perfect Robot" comment of the guy who started the thread.

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 8:03pm

"Ronin, I was just joking around. I was responding to the "Perfect Robot" comment of the guy who started the thread."

*Girl

[Isabella2]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 8:43pm

haha it was great to re-read this thread. Johanna is by far my favorite sondheim character.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 8:48pm

and to add to that, Molina probably plays her the best. :)

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 8:55pm

Sondheim is very hit-and-miss for me. For instance, I love Passion and Sweeney, but I hate Assassins and Pacific Overtures. I find Assassins just plain jumbled plot-wise, and Pacific Overtures bores the heck out of me. I think it's a mistake to think that some people don't like some Sondheim shows because they're "too intelligent." If a score doesn't hook you, well, how can you help that? I don't think it's fair to say that someone is too simpleminded or musically ignorant to enjoy Sondheim. Sometimes the music just doesn't appeal to a person. For instance, Sunday in the Park with George is pretty enough, but it really bores me.

Though... I don't think anyone could hate Sweeney Todd.

As for the Johanna debate, I don't think that playing her as emotionally unstable turns her into a parody. I think it's realistic. The girl has been raised by a rapist, after all. Who, as people have pointed out, kept her locked up all of her life. Frankly, I view her as a neurotic.

What always got me about the "bird in a cage" comparison is when Anthony asks how they get them to sit in a cage, and the person responds that they blind them. To me, that is a defining moment where you just grasp the utter sadness of the situation. And what's even more brilliant is that it's never mentioned again. Another musical would likely have run the metaphor into the ground, but Sweeney Todd didn't. Quite brilliant.

"Green Finch and Linnet Bird" has perfectly realistic lyrics for the character. Come on, I'm sure that Johanna's educated.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 8:58pm

Thanks BSo.

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 9:10pm

Assassins and Pacific Overtures don't have fluid storylines where you see a character through a journey, maybe that's why it's not your thang Sporkgoddess.

[JoizeyActor]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 10:00pm

I'm not a huge Sondheim fan, and I don't know much about the details of his productions, but I always find that I'm disappointed that I can't thoroughly appreciate his music upon the first hearing. I suppose I'm someone who needs instant gratification.

I saw the Sweeney revival and it was my first time seeing Sweeney Todd, and I absolutely loved it! But a lot of the clever lyrics and stuff you just miss because you are so enthralled with the whole experience that it's hard to sit and decipher each lyric as they fly by (and many of his songs have extremely intricate rhythms)

I realized his genius recently when I did crew work for my college production of Into the Woods. I sat backstage paging curtains, moving sets, etc. and I must have heard the show about 20 times. Over the course of the show's run I got to really sit and listen to the lyrics and I realized how clever and amazing the songs are, especially Into the Woods.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a lot of his stuff is so complex that you don't get to really appreciate it after one night at the theatre. You have to go a few more times, or at least I do, to really find each and every detail and appreciate it.

But my Sondheim knowledge is limited as I've said, so my opinion is from someone who is not a huge fan, but a fan nonetheless.

[JoizeyActor]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 10:04pm

Also, I saw Company at some NYU theatre group recently and I hated the show with all my heart.

At intermission my friend said: "They should really give you a razor with the playbill."

Actually, while I'm on the topic of Company, What is the point of the story, exactly?

Is it just that Bobby is going to forever be a lonely soul?

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 10:54pm

I think it is a matter of music education, actually. Obviously if you listen to Sondheim more his music will open up to you, but this is true of all music. The more you vary your tastes in music, even if it is tedious at first, the more doors will open. This is the same of everything and anything, literature, sports, art, etc... it really is a matter of education. The more you educate yourself on something the more you will come to appreciate it. This is just because in the process of educating yourself on something, you've become familiar with it, and suddenly you enjoy it. Familiarity breeds enjoyment.

Here's an actual Sondheim flaw, a well known one: Sing the song No One is Alone and then sing the song The Candyman.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 3/14/06 at 10:57pm

Company I find to be one of the few cds that I can sit through a listening without skipping a song. For the most part, there is always a song I hate on my cds or find boring enough to skip. Company is one of the only one though where the music captures my attention or is just nice music to put on doing hw. Of course I never get very far