Sondheim vs. Porgy & Bess - YIKES!- Page 8

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 10:54am

"usually did because the jokes were either stale or too referential for todays audiences."

True. But there are many people who believe the depiction of the black characters is stale and stereotypical. I was with an old friend last night. He happens to be black ('I swear...some of my best friends are!!'), and we got to discussing this. He generally feels that, though the score is extraordinary, the actual characterization of these characters now borders on offensive stereotypes.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 11:08am

PJ, that's funny.

Seriously: no matter your position on this topic, and granting that Sondheim "is not god," isn't he pretty much the LAST person on earth you'd like to have take you to task in the NY Times?









Updated On: 8/11/11 at 11:08 AM

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 11:45am

I agree with Sean's post earlier in this thread that Paulus and Parks are creating a work that is more 'Black-Friendly". Many of my black friends appreciate the piece for the groundbreaking it did, but see the characters as terrible stereotypes through a modern eye.

I honestly believe Sondheim wouldn't be (as) pissed at them if they were honest in their interview. Instead they attacked the creators, by saying that they didn't do it right the first time (instead of saying that they created a great work, but it is no longer giving the message it once did). This is all about the creative team's attitude.

I like Paulus and Parks a lot, and I am hoping this turns out to be a wonderful musical (and I think Sondheim does too), but that interview of theirs did them no favors at all, and that is what Sondheim is talking about (in my opinion)

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 11:52am

>> Many of my black friends appreciate the piece for the groundbreaking it did, but see the characters as terrible stereotypes through a modern eye

Just to put the question out there: what is it about the characters as currently written that makes them stereotypes? Are there no riverside communities like Catfish Row? Do people like Porgy and Bess and Sportin' Life not exist?

I'm not saying that they represent all blacks everywhere, but when we start going down this road, I wonder if this isnt trying to (excuse the pun) whitewash things a bit. I know there are pieces of gay theatre that make me cringe as I watch them, but I'd be the first to admit that, yes, we have over-the-top drag queens who can be seen as incredibly offensive. But they're still part of the community, and we have plenty of saccharine-sweet portrayals to balance it all out.

So what's really the issue with PORGY?

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 12:03pm

My guess is that it's the seminal work of black theatre (particularly music theatre) to which all others are compared. It's iconic in a way that all other shows primarily about the black experience are not. And I think there may be some resentment towards it because of that. I cannot speak for any of my black friends and colleagues. But I do know that I wouldn't want one word of BOYS IN THE BAND changed. But that was written by a gay man about gay people in a certain period. PORGY AND BESS is still based on an outsider's perspective. That is neither a good nor bad thing. But my guess is when black artists look to the great black theatrical work and see it rife with what they consider stereotypes, they cringe a bit.

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 12:05pm

Sean- I really can't answer your question. I would guess part of it is the cringe factor, much like you explained, but my friends see the piece as insulting, instead of a representation of a specific culture. Maybe it is because, in many productions but not all, there is little difference between the characters?

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 12:15pm

That's why I wrote earlier about the subtext and that part of the actor's job. Maybe I'm just being insensitive, but I look at these characters, and I see incredibly opportunity to make them unique and not the rattling stereotype everyone seems to think they are. I mean, if we want to talk stereotypes, look at some of the work of people like Geoff Morgan and Frederick Johnson, who wrote stuff for high schools that is bewilderingly rife with stereotypes and yet were presented by high schoolers as being legitimate portrayals of blacks (and other ethnicities, for that matter) onstage. By comparison, PORGY is practically reality TV.

I guess what I'm questioning here is the sense of balance. We have works by Scott Joplin as well as Gershwin and co; are those also perceived that way? I have to admit, I looked at Joplin's opera when it premiered and thought, "My god, this is one step shy of a minstrel show", especially when they got to the grand finale. But Ive never had that reaction when watching PORGY.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 12:48pm

It comes back to their quotes in the article. They act as if they are the first people ever to cringe and the only people to know how to make the work un-cringeworthy. There's no way they can remove enough of those aspects of the work. No way. So their honorable motives can only make

Many African-American performers and musicians over the years have felt exactly the same way, starting with Duke Ellington, who said in 1936 that it was "grand music and a swell play but the two don't go together" and that Gershwin did not use what Ellington called "the Negro musical idiom."

And when Grace Bumbry played Bess at the Metropolitan Opera, she (somewhat ungraciously) said, "I thought it beneath me, I felt I had worked far too hard, that we had come far too far to have to retrogress to 1935."

Harry Belafonte famously turned down the part of Porgy in the film, Sidney Poitier was sorry he accepted it. The film ended up a mess, and the Gershwin estate did their best to pull it from release.

But Paulus and Park did NOT say they were working to eliminate racial stereotypes. If they had, this mess might not have happened. (I still think that task is impossible.) Instead they made broad sweeping statements about how the opera was artistically deficient, as did Audra.

If they were simply making grand statements for the NY Times, they are now hoist but their own pretensions. If they were being disingenuous and they are really trying to erase the stereotypes from the entire opera while claiming to fix artistic flaws, then they are being artistically dishonest.

The interesting question becomes: What is to be done about the inadvertent racism of great works from the past, like Porgy and Bess, Showboat, Treemonisha, Huckleberry Finn--or even Uncle Tom's Cabin? In each of those cases, the writer's intentions were to support emancipation or racial equality, yet in each one of those cases, the works seem racist today.

Can they ever again be received as they were intended?

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 12:53pm

Probably not, which is, on one hand, unfortunate and, on the other, a surprising way of seeing how far we've all come.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 12:58pm

Well...perhaps not on Broadway (in respect to Uncle Tom's Cabin, in particular), but there are MANY small companies both in New York City and outside of it that do stage some of these shows...in very honest, straightforward ways. And often times, they are successful.

I personally think if you're doing Showboat and you don't let the first word of the show be 'n*s,' then you're a coward. I believe the performance of Grethe Boston in the revival of showboat showed you can play the role truthfully to the piece and the time period and still make it full-blooded and non-stereotypical.

I, personally, do not know where I stand on this issue in regards to Porgy and Bess. It's not a piece I know well (though I know a great deal of the major pieces of music from the show). I will, however, see this (mostly for the cast) and keep my mind open.

[AC126748]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 1:01pm

I personally think if you're doing Showboat and you don't let the first word of the show be 'n*s,' then you're a coward.

Agreed. It comes down to people (like Hal Prince) trying to present the piece simplistically as a "family show" rather than what it truly is--a finely tuned appraisal of race, love, personal humanity, and society.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 1:07pm

Well...what happened with the Prince production is a bit more complicated. I believe he intended to use the original lyric, and did so in the first few performances in Toronto. Then, misguided protests ensued. So it was changed. Or I've done too much coke and I'm making all of this up. But I think that's what happened.

Also, I believe the original lyric hasn't been used in a major production since 1929. It has been replaced at various times by 'colored folk', 'negros all' and, my personal favorite and I hope it's true, 'darkies all'.

I like to believe that, if it were done today, the original lyric would be used. But who knows.

As for the original article re: Porgy and Bess...didn't someone refer to some of the dialogue as 'Sambo speak'? I'll have to go back and re-read it.

[AC126748]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 1:09pm

Did John McGlinn not use it in the HGO production? I know he used it on his complete symphonic recording.

I saw a regional production that surprisingly used it, and to chilling effect.

[MadonnaMusical]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 1:15pm

I disagree about the characters being stale, and/or stereotypical. There is nothing stereotypical about a woman who is a drug addict. There is nothing stereotypical about a man who has lost everything, but finds his spirit again through a woman who loves him... these are stereotypes, they are archetypes, they are universal beyond race. You could set Porgy and Bess in any culture, in any time period and the story would be the same.

Porgy and Bess is heart-breaking because deep down we know that it will never work between them, but we want it to sooo bad, and when it doesn't our little hearts break.

There's nothing stereotypical about catfish row. If you don't like the fact that the men are entertaining themselves playing craps, then get over it. Men do that in any race, they do that on the streets of nyc STILL. All races.... PLEASE explain how you think these characters are stereotypes.

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 1:30pm

Madonna- Not sure if that was directed towards me, but I don't see them as stereotypes, that would be some of my friends.

I don't think they are the best crafted characters ever, but they are far from the worst and I have seen many actors give beautiful performances of them.

[ljay889]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 1:44pm

http://popwatch.ew.com/2011/08/11/sondheims-porgy-and-bess-slam-producers-respond/

[carnimiriel]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 1:47pm

The producers didn't give a real response. Not unless they're trying to act like they're taking the high road by not addressing specific concerns raised in Sondheim's letter.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 2:01pm

my personal favorite and I hope it's true, 'darkies all'.

It's true. It's what's used in the 1936 movie version.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 2:03pm

I knew I liked James Whale for a reason.

I mean...REALLY??? DARKIES???

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 2:14pm

The producers' response was exactly right. They supported their artistic team, expressed respect and love for the Gershwins and Heyward, and did not stoop to criticizing Sondheim.

In essence, they said, let the work speak for itself. Now it's up to all of us to decide: by buying a ticket and going to see it.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 2:21pm

^^ Agreed.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 2:35pm

But I really wish Grace Bumbry was on Twitter...

[Q]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 2:59pm

This was a great thread to read - thanks, everybody.

[AC126748]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 4:51pm

Audra tweets her statement:

Here's what I think...to quote the greatest musical theater composer of our time... "Art isn't easy"

[aasjb4ever]

Posted: 8/11/11 at 4:51pm

Audra McDonald just weighed in on twitter:

“@AudraEqualityMc: Here's what I think...to quote the greatest musical theater composer of our time... "Art isn't easy"”