The Shills Go 'Round- Page 3

[jmnpublications]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 5:01pm

This is a very interesting topic. I’d like to lend my perspective as the owner of a pr and marketing firm. First let me say that I do not have clients in the entertainment industry. I have not wanted to contaminate my passion for theater and the arts by turning it into work. However, if I did represent anyone connected with Broadway, I would consider it a conflict of interest to post on this board. While my professionalism would prevent me from touting a client or bashing a competitor in a public forum like this, I still would not want to express my personal opinions here. I believe that even the appearance of unethical behavior must be avoided.

Those of us in the public relations field should aspire to the same high standards to which journalists are supposed to be held. Unfortunately, because even the news now depends on ratings and is sometimes indistinguishable from entertainment, we have begun to justify any means of promoting a product as long as it’s good for business. That includes paid “shilling” on message boards like this one. I believe this practice to be unethical. Testimonials should come from satisfied customers, not copywriters. And they should never be solicited in exchange for financial compensation. Furthermore, placing paid raves on public message boards is a deception. People should know when they are reading advertising copy.

The practice of shilling on message boards has become standard practice for some agencies precisely because the Internet does influence public opinion. Certainly our political candidates have discovered its potential. Howard Dean and now John Kerry have amassed millions of dollars in campaign contributions as a result of grassroots Internet marketing. At first glance we may not think that boards like BWW.com can affect box office or increase celebrity status. But they do. One of the reasons that bad reviews don’t kill shows instantly anymore is that people are turning to the Internet for alternative opinions. Even the New York Times solicits reader reviews online and tracks the helpfulness of those submissions to their subscribers. The Internet is the new telephone. It is revolutionizing the concept of word-of-mouth.

I certainly don’t mean to discourage avid fans from praising their favorite performers. There is absolutely nothing wrong in touting a show you love or in trying to persuade message board readers to go see it. In fact, as theater lovers, I think we should be trying to help Broadway survive and thrive by encouraging others to catch the fever.

What I don’t condone are the paid hacks who spew hyperbole about a show or performer they have never even seen. That’s call lying, no matter how you “spin” it.

lc

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 5:14pm

lovesclassics, thank you for that wonderful post. It was a pleasure to read, and an eye-opener into the public relations industry.

[jmnpublications]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 5:32pm

BlueWizard,

You are very welcome.

lc

[Mr. Tuttle]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 6:44pm

I'm so glad that a thread that people have no interest has come back!

And thank you loveclassics for a truly eye-opening discussion on how valid and insulting shilling is to this induatry. I hope SamIAm was listening and learns that any word of mouth..even the spew of the 12 yr old Wicked fans causes talk. And that's what the producers want! You don't think WickedRocks has been talking about it during 4th period earth science and gotten her friends interested in Wicked?

And for those who still live in a bomb shelter..shills exist. Just ask our favorite BKLYN shill "dgabriel". First three posts...all about BKLYN providing revelant links to enlighten us.

In the imortal words of Charlotte Rae...grow up!

[CurtainUp2]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 6:56pm

DEAR GOD NO!!! TUTTLE'S BACK!!! JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO SHILL!!! IT'S TUTTLE 2! AND THIS TIME IT'S PERSONAL!!!

[SamIAm]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 6:59pm

Mr Tuttle and ILoveClassics: Internet marketing is truly a phenomenon. This was never my argument about those called 'shills' on these boards.

My argument was that the discussions among the Wicked Kids and others on this board are not influential in driving significant traffic to the box office. And REAL shills (though they do exist on the internet) are typically pretty easy to spot. They usually run in and post in a flurry and then are never heard from again OR they have very specific posts with links and information that they hope will lead people to 'buy' their product.

Perhaps those types of real shills have landed here and I just haven't read the posts but the issue I take with this and other Broadway boards is the liberal use of the word 'shill'. As someone else said, there is really no way to tell at the end of the day if that person IS a shill but everyone seems to be accused of it here when all they are doing is promoting their favorite shows. And let's face it, many of the people doing that here are under 18 yrs of age and just enamored of the star or the show itself.

Not pros

I live and work in the modern world and do not live under a bushel basket. I know there are those who want my cash and I have worked for companies that practiced these types of viral and internet marketing techniques. I've seen nothing so subtle, insidious or influential on this board.

And as I have been accused a number of times of shilling on this board...I can tell you that I am not a paid shill, and that if my opinions have prompted someone to see a show it is only because (as someone else said) I wanted others to know about a show I considered a 'find'

The Times now has something very similar to Amazon where you can add your opinions and comments about the show and others can tell the Times whether your comments helped them decide whether to buy a ticket. Not a new concept...here we are less sophisticated and have 'fans' of shows. Both can help the person looking for info...but there is a vast difference between that and what we are talking about 'professional shilling'

Let me put this another way and much more simply. The phrase 'Wicked Rocks' while eloquent in some circles, is definitely not going to make most of us run to the box office :)

Updated On: 9/4/04 at 06:59 PM

[jmnpublications]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 10:47pm

Hello, SamIAm,

I don't disagree with you at all. Like you, I also think it is unfair to accuse avid fans of being shills when all they are doing is sharing their enthusiasm. Heaven knows I can get a bit carried away about my favorites, too.

I was simply giving some credence to the rather questionable practice of paid agency shilling and to the influence that the Internet can have in terms of exposure. Sure, the post of one excited teenager may not affect box office. But the 50 replies to and 500 views of that one post can and do build interest. That is what pr and marketing firms count on when they have staff members post - the repetition that strengthens a brand. I'm not suggesting that this technique will ever fill a theater. But it can bring a bit of added name recognition to a show or performer. Internet message boards are just one more outlet for spreading the word.

Whether or not professional shills use this site is something none of us will ever know. But it is unlikely that frequent posters are anything but true fans. And isn't it great that we have an Internet community that allows us to share our particular passion with others, of all ages and backgrounds, who have similar interests?

lc

[Sally]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 12:44am

SamIAm and Al Dente have an opinion; LovesClasics has an *informed* opinion.


SamIAm:
"...My argument was that the discussions among the Wicked Kids and others on this board are not influential in driving significant traffic to the box office. ..."

Al Dente:

"... That has always been my point SamIAm. I, personally, make fun of the shills and the producers that hire them to post on this or any other message board, because it is truly, laugh out loud foolish to think it will have ANY impact (negative or positive), on what happens to a show and/or the people involved in the show. ..."



LovesClassics:

" This is a very interesting topic. I’d like to lend my perspective as the owner of a pr and marketing firm. ...The practice of shilling on message boards has become standard practice for some agencies precisely because the Internet does influence public opinion...."

[Mr. Tuttle]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 2:43am

Yes Curtain..

I'm here. As long as stupid idiots like you are still around, I have work to do.

Beauty fades...stupid last forever.

[CurtainUp2]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 2:51am

Oh Tutts... You're so intense! Go audition for something already! And before you go... take a SHILL pill!

[Mr. Tuttle]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 2:53am

Oh JRB!

I'm not the unemployed Equity actor that every director hates cause he's a jerk!


(awaiting the usually "I'm not__(member name)__" post).
Remember..one member name per member. Thanks. Now go get a job!

Updated On: 9/5/04 at 02:53 AM

[CurtainUp2]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 2:58am

Tutts... have you been drinking... again???

Updated On: 9/5/04 at 02:58 AM

[Mr. Tuttle]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 3:00am

No..not me.

But I'm sure you've got plenty time on your hands to drink since no one will hire you!

Cheers to weekly unemployment!

[CurtainUp2]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 3:16am

Oh Tutts... you're such a bitter old showgirl. But I love ya anyway. Oh and Tutts... I may not have a job... but at least I can afford not to!

Updated On: 9/5/04 at 03:16 AM

[Ebonic_Singer]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 3:31am

HAHAHAH! that "downright shilly" remark is sooo funny.

You guys are making me self conscious cuz I posted about Toxic Audio as my first post (I had commented on other threads) cuz I loved it after I saw it, although I didn't provide links and stuff. Oh well--some people are just enthusiasstic I guess! How much do you think shillers get paid? Is that what they're called--shillers? That's what I'm gonna call 'em.

[Ebonic_Singer]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 3:33am

Haha! you said "Shill pill" too! Too many things rhyme.

[CurtainUp2]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 3:38am

Ebonics... they're called Shills. And Tutts thinks that anyone who has anything positive to say about a show, is one. Except for her of course.

[Ebonic_Singer]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 3:42am

That is shilly, I guess she likes Shilliam Shakespeare. Or Shill Cosby. Or Shillis Diller. Or Shill Clinton.

[Corine2]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 10:00am

Sum-
I am no shill! Shills work for a show. I work for no show.
I do love a few and I am not paid to say how I feel.

[SamIAm]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 5:22pm

Sally, without knowing the background of the people posting on this board, it's hard to say that one has an 'opinion' and one is an 'informed' opinion.

I would also point out that even 'informed opinion's differ depending upon the person's experience and background, what industry they work in, etc.

I did not disagree with ILoveClassics...simply said that in my experience on these boards, shills were rare to non-existent. Though I DO know that even word of mouth can help a struggling picture or play, the accused shills on this board in particular are usually just rabid fans who hang out here.

[uncageg]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 7:19pm

Just a note on Denver (Since I live here). The show did very well here. It was even extended. Both papers here liked the show. They did not deem the show perfect, but it was the shows world premier. The theatre was not a big theatre but bigger than the theatre BARE played in. Word of mouth out here was very strong and by the last week of the run, everyone was trying to get tickets to see it. No, I am not a shill. Just a theatregoer. And I agree that this shilling (the first I have heard of it) is not going to impact sales.

[Sally]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 8:30pm

<< Sally, without knowing the background of the people posting on this board, it's hard to say that one has an 'opinion' and one is an 'informed' opinion. >>

True, but Lovesclassics detailed some credits in the PR and marketing world, a background that would give some extra credibility to his/her opinion in my book. No one else did.

I would certainly agree with you that on these boards, shills are rare and that the ones labled shills are usually just rabid fans. People are too quick to say "SHILL."

I really don't know if the "kids" on this board can have a positive effect on box office figures or not. I'm more concerned with what we might call the "negative shill.' A post from another board detailing how much the poster disliked the new Andrew Lloyd Webber show in London was picked up by a London newspaper and printed as evidence that the composer's biggest fans hated the show. A lot of people read that paper. I believe that the things posted on these boards can have some effect on shows, but I have no idea how much. Sounds like a good topic for somebody's Masters' thesis --if they could figure out how to do the research.

[Sunfish]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 9:20pm

The best way to spot a real shill is when the first post is a glowing rave of a brand new show, or a wildly eager "have you heard...I can't wait" of an upcoming one and the date of registration is Today. Confirmed when for the next week the only comments are about that show, often in new messages, not the original one. At that point, often the identify will disappear and a new one appear with the very same opinion! How coincidental!!

Those of us who are mere obsessive fans are usually spending truckloads of money on the show, not drawing a salary.

[Mr. Tuttle]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 11:46pm

For those of you crying "there are no such things as shills"..please check out the Bad BKLYN thread and see exactly what happens in the real world.

[StateOfJade]

Posted: 9/6/04 at 12:08am

Shill...it's such a threatening word. 'I am going to shill you, mother****er.'