The Wiz at a ... white HS- Page 5

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 7:48am

>> Then there's no excuse for you being such an intolerant, willfully ignorant ass, SeanMartin.

This coming from someone who has made some truly boneheaded remarks around here? Trust me, I aint impressed with your assessment, little boy. Go call the ACLU on that one while you're at it, huh?

>> Sean: You're being a tiny bit racist here, and a whole lot pigheaded. That word offends people. Use the word asian. It's inaccurate, yes, but it doesn't offend.

If I'm being pigheaded, it's because *some* folks around here dont seem to get the larger message that started this thread in the first place. As noted, they'll laugh and giggle over the image of a predominately white audience "swaying out of rhythm" and white singers who couldnt *possibly* sing "with soul" -- then they'll jump down my throat over semantics. Like I said earlier, the priorities around here sometimes verge on the bizarre... but what can you expect from a board that obsesses about lame little musicals lik WICKED and gets all up in arms when someone says that CHORUS LINE just aint all that?

>> Um...people who are Asian HAVE told you so. In this thread.

Hiding behind a screenname and claiming to be something is quite different from actually *being* that, as any gay man around here will attest (right, guys?). Sorry, but it's way to easy to *pretend* to be something around here just to score a few points, like fenchurch's absurd claim that he was "just on the phone with the ACLU". I prefer a little proof of my detractor's identity before I'll take their claim seriously.

>> People from Asia and with Asian heritage never chose to be called Oriental. They never claimed to live in the Orient. Those terms were brought in by the British and others while they were busy colonizing.

So? It's a frame of reference and nothing more. Cut through it all, and it's no more offensive IMHO than saying "Far East", which too was a British term laid on that part of the world during the colonization of the Asian continent. So please... what *is* the issue here?

>> They're all from very different places in Europe and they're all Europeans, yes?

Well, see, that's my point, ma'am. Thank you for underscoring it for me.

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 8:39am

Sean, look, you're being an idiot. The term "Orient" offends people because it comes from a history of European imperialism. I find it a little peculiar that you didn't know that it was offensive, but there you go. However, now that you know, as a sensible person, you should stop using it. I agree with a lot of the points you make, but you're really being pointlessly stubborn on this.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 8:46am

"Like I said earlier, the priorities around here sometimes verge on the bizarre... but what can you expect from a board that obsesses about lame little musicals lik WICKED and gets all up in arms when someone says that CHORUS LINE just aint all that?"

Or a board where people continue to argue that it's ok to use the word oriental...even though pretty much everyone knows it's offensive.

[Kringas]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 9:45am

Sorry, but it's way to easy to *pretend* to be something around here just to score a few points, like fenchurch's absurd claim that he was "just on the phone with the ACLU".

Not that it's going to matter to you, because you're almost certainly already off misconstruing something else, but Fenchurch never said that. He certainly didn't say it verbatim (so your use of quotation marks is deliberately misleading, unless of course you're now going to claim that you weren't aware that quotation marks are used when you're quoting someone's exact words) and he didn't say anything of the like. He was referring to an earlier incident. All that matters little to Sean "I can read between the lines" Martin, though.

[MaronaDavies]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:39am

"So? It's a frame of reference and nothing more. Cut through it all, and it's no more offensive IMHO than saying "Far East", which too was a British term laid on that part of the world during the colonization of the Asian continent. So please... what *is* the issue here?"

*sigh* I can't believe anyone would be so willfully ignorant and stubborn on this.

The issue here is:

IN 2007, ORIENTAL IS CONSIDERED AN ETHNIC SLUR. ASIANS DO NOT LIKE TO BE CALLED ORIENTAL. THEREFORE, IT IS NOT OK TO USE.

And no, Oriental is not a frame of reference. The people from Asia do not have to accept a term that was given to them by a nation/group that took over their countries against their will, subjugated them and used their resources. Just because the English decided to name other nationalities people to their personal liking doesn't mean those names should stick 150 years after the fact. They had some pretty choice names for the Irish and Scottish, should we use those too?

You know, I'm sure you can continue to delude yourself that it's still OK to call Asians "Oriental," but please don't be shocked when people get angry, turn around and call you out on it. You're very wrong in your thinking here.
Updated On: 5/23/07 at 11:39 AM

[2373]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 12:06pm

EDIT:

I thought we were talking about The Wiz but now ..I don't know...

so I deleted my comment..

back to all of your racial bashing... Updated On: 5/23/07 at 12:06 PM

[AnnaK<3LMIP]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 7:50pm

2373 - bring it back! We are talking about The Wiz!! I promise!!

[2373]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 8:45am

I just don't like conversations like this because no one wins and no matter what you say, someone is going to think you are a racist.

I must say though (we are WAAAY off topic already so it shouldn't matter) I saw a Carlos Mencia (whose real name is NED, by the by) stand up act in tv the other night and all he did was make fun of us white people and the whole audience thought it was HILARIOUS! I am caucasian and I was extremely offended.

Turn that around and you would have the ACLU licking at your heels for being a racist.

So, why is reverse racism acceptable. And why is it called "reverse?"

racism is racism. period.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 9:03am

There is no such thing as reverse racism... period.

Racism is a form of institutionalized oppression, Carlos Mencia is just an ass.
And believe me, I really don't feel bad that you felt just a little of the oppression that people have been feeling for hundreds of years for an hour while a guy made fun of you on a stage. Deal with it. Do you have ANY idea how popular minstrelsy was? Read the biography of Stephen Foster and he explains how insanely popular blackface minstrels were in his day, he said the kids in the neighborhood slept and dreamt about them and it's all they could think about it. People loved it and couldn't get enough of it.

So deal with Carlos Mencia making you uncomfortable for a half an hour once a week.

Boo-friggin-hooo, I love it how white people get up in arms about a black person playing a white role, and then get totally offended when their white privelege is challenged by a minority artist. It's racist in itself, and self-righteous, which is even worse.

Updated On: 5/24/07 at 09:03 AM

[LostLeander]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 10:58am

I understand your point Fenchurch, but I disagree.

[AnnaK<3LMIP]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:18am

Just to throw it out there Fenchurch, it's not that I don't WANT a black Maria because it's alwas been played by a white woman..it's just that in this particular case Maria was white. As in, in real life.


I don't like The Wiz.

Updated On: 5/24/07 at 11:18 AM

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:30am

I'm sorry, people who fetishize the need for REALISTIC portrayals of humanity should also be complaining that people are spontaenously breaking into song.

If you can suspend your disbelief for that, then you should be able to suspend your disbelief enough to acccept a black woman playing Maria. Otherwise, you're a racist.

End of story.

[AnnaK<3LMIP]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:34am

Fenchurch that is so completely incorrect, I can't even come up with a response to that. Except to tell you that it's so completely incorrect of you to call me a racist. Believe me if you know what I've been through you would not be calling me a racsit. But fine, judge away.

Anyway. About The Wiz..

Updated On: 5/24/07 at 11:34 AM

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:36am

I'm sorry, but everyone has issues with race that they have to deal with. You chose to let us know that you have a problem with race in this sense. Just admit it and move on with your life, it doesn't make you a bad person, it just means that you have some growing to do as a person. We ALL do, but the worst thing to do is hide racism behind some kind of false obeisance to verisimilitude, because it's a straw man argument at best.

[AnnaK<3LMIP]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:40am

It's not a personal problem with race. It's a historical fact that has to do with race. Because Maria AGAIN was a REAL PERSON. She was a real. White. Woman. It's not that I'm racist. It's that it was a fact.
Stop being pretentious, it doesn't suit you. Before I was willing to understand your point of view. You know nothing about me. But just for you, if you want to think I'm a racist then fine.

Right so. About The Wiz.

Updated On: 5/24/07 at 11:40 AM

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:41am

So Fenchurch, by your reasoning, a white woman should be able to play Sarah in Ragtime, and I should just accept that because she's singing?

[AnnaK<3LMIP]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:43am

Wonderfuwizard, I was literally about to go edit my post to say that. You read my mind.


People who say Sarah has to be portrayed by a black woman are racist. HOW ABOUT we just don't have any shows that have to with race? Maybe they're more interesting...but we certainly don't want anyone overreacting.


That being said, I think we should go ahead and cast African-american actors in THE KING AND I. Afterall, it doesn't have to be real...they're randomly singing.

Updated On: 5/24/07 at 11:43 AM

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:47am

AnnaK,

Anyone who has a brain and has actually DONE THE RESEARCH will know that the Sarah argument is old and tired. That show directly interfaces racial issues.

While one can argue the same for SOM it doesnt DIRECTLY interface with those issues.

If you accept Maria von Trapp singing from a mountaintop and having proficiency in puppetry (which to my knowledge, she didn't) then you have NO argument. You either suspend your disbelief or you don't, if you cannot suspend your disbelief based on the color of someone's skin, then that is the VERY essence of racism.

[AnnaK<3LMIP]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 11:52am

For those of you who are keeping count, I:
-am a racist.
-have no brain.

Stay away from me, all of you, please.

P.S. Done the research? Why would I DO THE RESEARCH? I know people argue that all the time..because it's true. Unless you mean I should do the research behind RAGTIME. But seeing as how I was in a production of RAGTIME, and it's been one of my favorite books since I was in the 7th grade...I think it's safe to say I know what it's about. But thank you.



As much as I hate to leave this riveting conversation...I have a biology test. Fenchurch, hopefully I'll come back online tonight to find more judgements made on my behalf.

Updated On: 5/24/07 at 11:52 AM

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 12:02pm

I think it's hilarious that you have decided not to address my argument on the subject of suspension of disbelief not once but twice now.

Very telling.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 1:10pm

This is SO off topic, but the Maria Von Trapp of Sound of Music is HARDLY the real-life Maria. She's a theatricalized character very loosely based on the real Maria. I only know what the real Maria Von Trapp looked like because someone posted a picture of her on these boards. Hardy ANYONE knows what the real Maria Von Trapp looked like. And she certainly did not look like Julie Andrews, or Mary Martin.

What she looks like is irrelevant - of course, I do have a little bit of issue, because Nazis are involved - but I find even more fault in the argument that Maria can't be black because the real Maria wasn't.

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 2:36pm

Y'all ready for this? I don't give two craps what Maria von Trapp looked like in real life, but I would never cast a black woman in the role. Why? Because having a black person play that part neccesarily affects the dynamic of interaction with all the other characters. Why? Because the show is about Nazism. Captain von Trapp is meant to be the Nazi's ideal officer. They're desperate to have him fighting on their side. Would they feel the same way if he married a black woman? No. They'd kill him. Apart from that, I'd want to make it clear that it was loyalty to Austria that motivates the captain, not an effort to protect his wife from racism.

There are countless shows where race doesn't matter. The Wiz is one.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 3:45pm

Edmund...SUSPEND YOUR DISBELIEF. Can't you pretend that a black woman is playing a white woman? What's so hard about that?

[fairygodmother]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 5:12pm

ah, yet again, fenchurch has shown himself to be a thoroughly unreasonable and downright ridiculous poster, who seems to believe that his opinion is so far above other peoples' as to be deemed omnipotent and, obviously, right. There is no need to belittle other people's comments constantly just because you disagree with them. and who are you to decide that there is no such thing as reverse racism? that is a such an arrogant assumption. agreed, i'm not sure about the term 9why should it be reverse? why not just racism) - just because there is a history of oppression on one side doesn't absolve the other side of their actions. you have no idea what people have experienced in their lives. as a white woman living in a predominantly black and fairly hostile part of london, i can say without a doubt that I have not been treated equally and with respect at all times. ok, its not on a par to some people's experiences, but it is racism all the same.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 5/24/07 at 5:21pm

"There are countless shows where race doesn't matter. The Wiz is one."

Well...I don't really agree with that. However, I have no problem with an all white high school doing The Wiz. It's a fun show...especially for kids. It would be nice if the person directing the show gave a little historical background and educated the students that the show was originally performed with an all black cast and why that was important at the time.