The Wiz at a ... white HS- Page 3

[LostLeander]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 12:36am

"True, it looks a little strange that Lizzie is the *only* black member of the Currie family, which, TTTT, makes her look more like the family maid than the daughter."

How did I make it a fact when your phrase so clearly did all the work for me?

I am not calling you a biggot, or a racist - nor do I think you are one, but your use of such an outdated word did not help your argument on racial casting in the theatre.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 1:18am

Oriental is absolutely a racist term. Educate your self and read some Edward Said. It automatically "others" an entire part of the globe and groups them into one random "culture" that is supposed to somehow be homogeneous.

The eastern hemisphere is home to many MANY MANY different cultures, and to refer to any one of them as simply "Oriental" is to rob these cultures of their individuality and subjugate them to inferiority within your discourse.

Just because you use racist terminology all the time or the people around you do, doesn't make it right. More bigotry is more bigotry, not less. So don't try to lessen it by using the excuse that the term is in wide usage, that's just wrong.

Updated On: 5/21/07 at 01:18 AM

[sondhead]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 2:45am

Thanks Fenchurch for that clarification. Oriental as a "people" group is definitely offensive. As Asian folks say, there are Oriental rugs and Japanese people (or Chinese, etc.)

I'd say white productions of the Wiz are usually awkward because most of the people mounting them are very amateur and not able to cast the most ideal white cast out there. Most professional theatres mounting the Wiz do so with a mostly black cast. If one were to do an all white professional production it would be a pretty big deal and they would probably think long and hard about casting.

That score REQUIRES soulful singing. It is not a score intended to be read off a page, but rather interpreted and felt.. built upon within the soul. Look at the score sometime and compare it to the OBC recording.. they are not singing directly what's on the page. "The Feeling We Once Had" is a shining example.

If you have a white cast that can competently handle this, then great--they'll sound great, and I know for a fact there are people out there that can do it. Perhaps the greater challenge with all-white productions of the Wiz is the book, which as has already been said is written in jive. The book sounds awkward out of many all-BLACK casts these days, not to even mention the white ones. It takes clever performers to make that book funny these days (and it IS possible).

I don't, however, see how it could be deemed so offensive for an all-white cast to do the Wiz. If they're talented, let them do it. I'd say at this point it'd be more offensive to say we need to reserve that show for black people as if they "need" it.

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 9:19am

Oriental is absolutely a racist term. Educate your self and read some Edward Said. It automatically "others" an entire part of the globe and groups them into one random "culture" that is supposed to somehow be homogeneous.
=============================

The irony of this statement in a thread where the terms "white" and "black" have bounced around so much is astounding.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 9:33am

>> Oriental is absolutely a racist term

Well, perhaps you social scientists can enlighten me as to the proper term? I note that none of you have to date, so perhaps you yourselves dont even know anymore.

For myself, it's about as offensive as a tea snack. Get over it, people -- and remember all those who have been screaming throughout this thread how WRONG it is for a white high school to do somehting like THE WIZ because white people dont have sufficient soul. Franky, the priorities in this thread bite the big one, and not in a good way.

I'll repeat: I dont give a tinker's gosh darn who performs the play at the high school level. It's idiotic to the extreme to start acting like the Racism Police and tell kids that certain roles are out of bounds because they happen to be the wrong skin colour. That's ridiculous: theatre at that level isnt about propriety. It's about learning. And if some white girl from Connecticut decides to do a monologue from "Raisin in the Sun" as an audition piece, I dont think ANY of you have the right to tell her she cant because she's not "black enough". Nor would I suggest to a black or Hispanic student that Blanche Dubois is out of bounds as a performance piece because that's not what school theatre is supposed to be about.

So get your knickers in a twist over "oriental" all you wish. It doesnt bother me either way. But pretend to be all pure and high and mighty and make fun of white kids taking on roles outside their experience, and I'll happily remind you who the true racists are around here.

Get over it and move on.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 10:02am

SeanMartin: You are so backward it's not even funny, and then to get self-righteous about it is even more laughable.
The correct replacement for the term "Oriental" wasn't given to you, because there is none. If you had read what I wrote you would know that. If you're talking about a specific Eastern culture then choose the country/area/people and name them, but don't lump them into an all-encompassing "oriental" umbrella, because the East is not one country or culture.

Im sorry, it is socially irresponsible NOT to explain to a young white actor or actress why it is inappropriate to do a monologue from Raisin in the Sun or a shwo like The Wiz. As a classroom exercise in acting, that's one thing, but if you're preparing these kids for possible careers in the field, they should understand the political and social implications of the art form. It's not enough to know your craft, as an artist you have a social responsibility, and at the VERY least, as a white actor you should know that some pieces were WRITTEN for minority casts because minority actors and actresses get very few chances to portray their own cultures in their art, and to try to copy that with white actors is really a slap in the face to their culture, it smacks of Minstrelsy in fact.

[MTVMANN]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 10:11am

There is NO REASON at all that "The Wiz" can not be done by an ALL WHITE CAST. Nothing in the script says anything about race, and it EASILY lends itself to an ALL WHITE CAST. MUCH, MUCH EASIER than an ALL BLACK CAST of "Oklahoma, ect"

Also, I wouldn't worry about the one black girl with only a bit of "funk" as you put it! I'm sure that everyone will manage just fine!!!!!!

[Shakespearean]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 10:23am

Trekkie2 wrote:

Yeah, last night my High School announced The Wiz for next year, and we have maybe 2 black people in theater. Which equals a lot of white people swaying awkwardly from side to side and snapping.

I'm sending you a bill for my dry cleaning and the $6 cup of Starbucks coffee that I just aspirated through my nose. You are officially my new best friend!

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 11:24am

>> The correct replacement for the term "Oriental" wasn't given to you, because there is none.

Well, you better start looking, pumpkin, because even the US Census Bureau has one... unless, of course, you want to start calling them backwards. And you can get all PC all you wish, but it's kinda hard to ignore reality.

>> Im sorry, it is socially irresponsible NOT to explain to a young white actor or actress why it is inappropriate to do a monologue from Raisin in the Sun or a shwo like The Wiz.

That's bullcrap. When I taught at a college here in NC, one of my "colleagues" told a Hispanic girl that, well, sure, she *could* use one of Blanche's monologues for her acting final, but she might as well accept it now that she would *never* be seriously cast for the role. Needless to say, the head of the department had that "professor" for a little sit down to explain to him why you should *never* say such a bone-headed thing to a student.

And you're telling me it's perfectly okay to instill those kinds of racist attitudes? Give me a freaking break, boy-o, and dont even begin to pretend to tell me what one should or should not tell students about their work.

>> they should understand the political and social implications of the art form

That's right, bud. Tell me all about it. Then start telling everyone else about what really comes down to censorship in the arts.

[HumATune]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 11:35am

SeanMartin, cabbage, I’d love to see what happens to you if you call someone Oriental to his or her face. Then you can us if it's okay to use that term.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 11:48am

"If there's some new politically correct term to use to describe folks who live along the western edge of the Pacific Rim, then kindly enlighten me."

Asian and/or Far Easterner are the correct terms. The term "The Orient" actually referred to the Middle East up until the 19th Century, when it was changed to refer to China, Japan and Korea. If you want to be racist, fine, but please contain it to the southern location of the U.S. where ignorance s ripe.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 1:45pm

>> Asian and/or Far Easterner are the correct terms

If that's so, then what do we make of all these Middle Easterners who, techincally, are part of the Asian continent? They're not Asian as well? Fascinating. Anyone ask them what they think about this?

Now, assuming that it *is* okay to use the term "Asian" with them, isnt that lumping a whole bunch of people together who really arent the same?

Words. Gotta love them.

>> If you want to be racist, fine, but please contain it to the southern location of the U.S. where ignorance s ripe.

Oooo. Painful! Yeah, that's right, bud. *You* can be a geographic bigot, but it's not okay for someone else to call you on it, huh?

>> I’d love to see what happens to you if you call someone Oriental to his or her face. Then you can us if it's okay to use that term.

Unlike you clowns who hide behind your cute little avatars, I'd be more than happy to. I'd rather learn first hand than from some fanboys who think stealing a copyrighted image is okay. At least in person it would have integrity. And at least I can say that the topic that started this thread is light more racist than the bullcrap you're trying (and failing) to dump on me. Deal with it, kiddies.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 2:01pm

"If that's so, then what do we make of all these Middle Easterners who, techincally, are part of the Asian continent?"

They are called Middle-Easterners. This is not nuclear physics. Did you flunk-out of the third grade, because you really don't seem that bright. Though, I guess as a racist, you just don't care.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 2:06pm

"So what? That waas then. This is now, 30 years later...True, it looks a little strange that Lizzie is the *only* black member of the Currie family, which, TTTT, makes her look more like the family maid than the daughter. "

Things haven't changed much for you have they pumpkin?

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 2:09pm

I wasn't aware that "Oriental" was a racist term either. I knew it wasn't something that was still typically said to describe people, but I didn't think it was considered racist.

So to all of you pretentious hags ready to pull the race card for that one, seriously, chill out. You can't blame someone for something that know nothing about.

[HumATune]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 2:30pm

Munkustrap, thank you for calling me a hag, may the men in my town think of the same of me and leave me the hell alone already.

Now, look, I’m not pulling this from nowhere. I’ve had lots of discussions about race with people over the years (gotta love college), and nearly everyone the term Oriental would apply recoils at the idea of being called that and would take great offense. (Just as I would take offense to being called Negro or colored.) So I am basing this off of substantial conversations I’ve had with people, not some politically correct vigilante crap. I just don’t understand how anyone under a certain age who lives in the Unlisted States could think a term like oriental is still acceptable. And if SeanMartin’s picture is accurate he is clearly young enough to know better, not someone from a different era who had these terms ingrained in his or her vocabulary as a child.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 2:34pm

All I'm saying is that I don't think it's widely understood (especially among younger people, perhaps) that Oriental is something you don't say.

I wouldn't say it just because it sounds antiquated. I don't say "Colored" or "Negro" either, but those words have been clearly engrained on our minds as racist terms.

The word Oriental doesn't come to mind as a racist word - and it actually wasn't until this thread that I knew it was unacceptable.

All I'm saying is that there's no need to get defensive about the subject. I don't know if it was you or someone else, but just chill out and realize that some people honestly just might not know.

[LittleFish8386]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 2:35pm

I did it in High School my sophomore year--and my school is as white as they come. I was in the ensemble and the Scarecrow u/s and we had a blast. I don't believe there is really any racial charged points to the show other then the fact that it was written for a black cast.

[MaronaDavies]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 2:48pm

Use the term Asian. NOT Oriental. NOT "Chinese" unless you know for a fact they actually ARE Chinese (for some reason, a lot of people tend to describe random Asians as "Chinese," whether they are or not).

In the UK the term Oriental seems to still be used (fortunately less and less), but it is outdated.

I'd never jump on someone for using the term Oriental if they didn't know...it was a word in use up to fairly recently, and it takes time to phase it out. But if someone's told the term has been updated to something considered less pejorative, there's no need to fight it. You wouldn't want your ethnic group called by a name you found offensive, would you? "Oriental" has negative connotations to most Asians themselves and that is what counts.

About The Wiz, then. My school did it, but we were very diverse. The cast had kids of all ethnicities, and it worked. I've always thought of The Wiz as being an urban show more than anything else, and if you had a group of city kids, I'd think it would be doable. Seeing The Wiz done by an all-white cast in Iowa would be somewhat bizarre, though.




Updated On: 5/21/07 at 02:48 PM

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 3:18pm

I'm sorry, if you don't know that Oriental is racist, then you've been living under a rock, But even so. Now you know, move on. Don't use your ignorance as an excuse.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 3:21pm

Ignorance? I didn't say I used the word, I said that I didn't know it was considered racist.

All I'm saying is that you can't jump down someone's throat for something they didn't know. I'm not even the one that said it.

AND, this is coming from someone with Korean family members. Such a thing has never come up.

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 3:23pm

I gotta chime and say that it is pretty widely known that Oriental is an inappropriate thing to call a person. A rug, yes...but not a person.

Asian/Pacific Islander is the term(s) I hear used most often as a way of generally describing people from that region.

[sondhead]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 4:07pm

"All I'm saying is that you can't jump down someone's throat for something they didn't know."

No one did. SeanMartin doesn't seem to care that many people find that word offensive when used to describe people. No one really jumped down his throat until he fought back about it.

The replacement for Oriental is Chinese, Japanese, Korean--whatever nationality the people you are referring to are.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/21/07 at 4:25pm

What we should all understand is that like the Eastern Hemisphere, which is populated by literally hundreds of distinct cultures all with their own World View, which obviously vary based on affiliation and geography, among other things, we also vary here in the US as to how we see the world.

Now think about this in reference to the United States. Do you realize that the US is one of the largest countries in the world? The region spans thousands of miles, and on a board like this, people are chiming in ideas from VASTLY different parts of the country, and the Western world. While in the US we share a great deal culturally, there are many many differences about how we see the world based on where we come from. Just because we all salute the same flag, doesn't mean we see the world the same way. So I actually do think it's believeable that someone who has grown up in a predominantly rural area or an area without much cultural diversity could be unwillingly ignorant about such things, or at least relatively more unknowing than someone living in an urban center like New York City.

HOWEVER, globalization and technology has made this excuse less and less believeable as we move along. Information is more available than ever, at your fingertips and at the touch of a button, and if you're a frequent internet user, then you have even less of a reason not to be aware. Apathy is not an excuse, if you're going to engage in these discussions on a board like this, and come across someone with a differing opinion, do yourself a favour and take the time to educate yourself about the subject before basing your arguments on just what you see around you every day. Yes, Socrates said the best education was to just observe life, but that doesn't excuse laziness, part of that is thinking critically and asking questions of yourself and others. It's very much the American Way nowadays to become annoyed with someone who asks questions that challenge old habits or traditions or "accepted thinking" about a subject. Look how John McCain treated those reporters, do you really want a hothead ignorant a&&hole like that being the face of our country to the rest of the world? It's one of the cultural things that many, but not all of us share, it's ingrained in our media and it is one of the traits that make much of the Western (and Eastern) world dislike us. Really, it's a terrible form of arrogance, and something that I feel we need to work on as a people.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 5/22/07 at 11:34am

I hope no one calls me some kinda of antipatriot after this rant.