To those of you who don't like unions

[Mooo]

Posted: 11/21/07 at 12:38pm

This is what can happen when you don't have a union. It's an article about how Circuit City fired most of their employees in order to hire them back at lower wages earlier this year.
Unions are very important to this country and even if you don't happen to belong to a union you can thank them for your weekend off and your employer-provided health insurance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/28/AR2007032802185.html

[roadguy]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 5:04am

Wow, that's gross.. A kid was making 11 bucks an hour and got fired... Unreal...

Union bashers?? Where are you?? No comments??

[allofmylife]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 6:47am

Many of the union bashers just joined the board shortly before the strike (a great number of anti-union folks joined my movie boards in the weeks ramping up to the WGA strike as well). There seems to have been some pre-positioning of naysayers and "moderate" voices on websites before both the WGA and Local One strikes. I guess the other side is learning the power the web has to influence people....

Updated On: 11/22/07 at 06:47 AM

[don logan]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 11:06am

I've been shocked at the intensity of the anti union furor on this site. Considering the usual liberal stance of most members here, I've assumed that these are shills for management.

[Steve2]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 12:06pm

This belongs on the off-topic board.

[BroadwayBen]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 12:21pm

It's not a question of 'liking' or 'disliking' unions. That's too simplistic. The question surrounding Local 1 is whether their work rules are so complicated and burdensome that they force shows to pay for work that is unnecessary. While they are defending their stances, thousands of others are going without paychecks and millions of dollars are being lost for the City. So why is everyone defending work rules that millions of Americans don't get. Why should they get them? Just "because they always had them"? Tell that the UAW workers, which by the way, is a union that still exists but had to change because the times did.

[whatever2]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 12:25pm

> This belongs on the off-topic board.

i disagree. the anti-union vitriol that has played out on this board over the past few weeks is very much on topic. and, apologies to ben, much of it has been every bit as simplistic and non-germane as he laments this thread being.

if this thread belongs on the off-topic board, then so do the dozen or so threads bashing unions that surround it.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 12:54pm

Simply because you don't go lockstep for whatever the union says (or the league for that matter) does not make one a shill

Listen to both sides of an arguement & do not have a closed mind. Maybe closed minds brought this on & will keep it going for some time to come.

[don logan]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 12:58pm

What we are talking about is the people who post things about how unions aren't necessary and that b'way would be better off without them.

[Tkt2Ride]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 1:25pm

I remember when that happened. It happened not too recently for people working at SBC when the Govt. allowed them to re-unite with ATT. ATT actually was always struggling but they still had their Parent Company to get money from. As soon as they had the chance to get rid of SBC they jumped up, changed Giants Stadium's name once again to ATT and now lots of good jobs are in India.

I heard some that happens with everything Rupert Murdoch touches too. Haven't heard much about how that buyout went, maybe he got compassionate all of the sudden but I doubt it.

Competition creates jobs and stops organizations like the League from shutting down Broadway.

I do believe this should have been fair but I cannot ignore that it was the League who threatened the Lock-out and enforced new work rules.

At least I hope most agree that they could have at least limited the changes to what the Union agreed they would change only rather then the whole package. If they didn't threaten the Union the Holiday Season would have gone just fine and any strike would have been put off until the Spring.

Once the lock-out was not only threatened but it was published in the Press, the Union had only two choices.

They are doing what they have to do not what they want to do.

It should though upset your sense of Financial know how Mr. Roxy to see these frivolous lawsuits going on in Court. Talk about throwing your money away.

I have read of Businessmen who rather give all their money to Lawyers rather than pay taxes. They complain about how the Govt. spends their money and then give it to Lawyers? The bill is usually the same and does a whole lot less than it would going to the Govt. Defys logic to me.

The money these Corporations are wasting on Lawyers could have bought them a two year Contract instead and they would come out the same. No instead let's shut down Broadway the year before an Election that we know will go to the Democrats.

John Edwards has the best chance right now and if and when he wins, things will change drastically. What businessman would purposely blow his last chance to get even richer by going up against the strongest Union in town with only $20?

Save your money, make sound investments. The whole market is going to change drastically. At least the Dems will buy us out of fiscal poverty but the price the Rich will have to pay is going to hurt as most borrowing does. Remember Haliburton, who ate up a good chunk of your tax dollars. just moved their assets to Dubai. They won't be paying US Taxes anytime soon. Good old American Business people. Makes me ill just thinking about it.

Right now, the League needs to get some sound business people before they ruin Broadways reputation
Updated On: 11/22/07 at 01:25 PM

[winston89]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 1:53pm

It doesn't matter that the article is talking about an eleven year old kid at work. It is the basic idea of the article that is making the point. Yes, I do feel that the league pushed and pushed the union over the edge until there was a strike. And thier public threat of a lockout didn't make things any better.


It should be noteded that the league is doing a poor job of trying to save their skins by going into court and having court cases that hold no water at all. First the owenrs of the St James V the union and now the Nederlanders verses the union.

The league is trying to act as if it is completly against the law for the stagehands to do anything. When in fact legally it is two private groups fighting it out however they want to. This is why the mayor can't force anything to happen in terms of both sides talking but he can offer his help.

This remindes me of the ongoing dispute over wall mart and how they do not and refuse to unionize thier workers that way they can pay less for thier services. The producers would like to do the same as well. But, what they doin't realize is that NYC is a very union heavy place. And that unions equal better workers ( keep in mind I am still talking about NYC which is a very union heavy city. Not sure how it is in other places). That being said, if they want a good job done and they do. Then they have to deal with the unions. If they made all this private which they can do then they know that they are going to get crappy results and the producers don't want that for their shows.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 1:57pm

It takes 2 to tango so do not make the union out to be innocent babes in the woods in this.

The league made a mistake putting in the work rules unilaterly. The union made the bigger one calling the strike during the holiday season & not in stating it would start 1/1/08. They would have made their point by telling people they were not striking now so as not to kill the holiday season. They would have staged major PR points (especially with the public), would have made their point & had an extra month or so to negotiate. January would have been bad but this is worse. This is devastating many lives but I have never seen when unions strike they worry about others. Unions are good & needed but sometimes things get out of hands. The unions are not representing people in sweatshop conditions. This is a fight between 2 sides & both have the theatergoer in the middle with their hands around their throat.

The league is greedy but so is local 1. Both sides are at fault . To just take a stand the union is 100 % right no matter what is why this strike will linger for sometime. How many people will just get fed up (NYer & tourist) & say screw both of you?

2 years ago the Grinch was the TWU. This year it is local 1. This will really make NY attractive to visitors. Hey, we can look forward to possibly another one when the musicians contract is up.

Updated On: 11/22/07 at 01:57 PM

[Tkt2Ride]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 2:17pm

Oh please Mr. Roxy, can't you do better than that about the strike?

How effective would a strike be in January? Not worth the cardboard your sign is printed on. You must understand business better than that. Plus, they and the other Union Members would be in a bad place for finding temporary work to help cover their wages. Most don't hold enough stock, if any, to live off of the interest like many of those in the League do.

Did you catch the article that stated the Stagehands Union is helping out Ushers financially? What is the League doing for them? Or any of the other workers who have to obey the Picketline.

These are people who make lots of money for them. They put these people on the Picketline too. Any day the League can go back and let the Stagehands work under the old rules while they continue to negotiate.

Sure, the Union should have waited to be locked out by the League so than everything would have been so much better? They would have locked them out in January Mr.Roxy. That is almost a guarantee. Forcing these people to walk a picket line in the freezing snow.

I know, they should have to risk frostbite so you could see a show. Where is the Christmas spirit in your line of thinking there?

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 2:20pm

The defense rests.

No further questions your honor.

[Tkt2Ride]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 2:33pm

Okay. I really hope you don't have any stock in these shows. Well Disney is pretty secure still I would believe. Go buy them some pastries and maybe they will sing Christmas Carols for your Grandkids or the Mrs. How neat is that?

When you think of something else please let me know.

[JimmyP2]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 2:43pm

Mr Roxy said:
"The league made a mistake putting in the work rules unilaterly. The union made the bigger one calling the strike during the holiday season & not in stating it would start 1/1/08. They would have made their point by telling people they were not striking now so as not to kill the holiday season. They would have staged major PR points"

But wouldn't waiting till January be like teachers going on strike the day after school lets outs for the summer? Or lifeguards going on strike in December? I know these are far fetched analogy's, but I'm just trying to make a point. I agree they're not winning any PR battles here. Bad times.


P.S.
It's funny you mentioned the TWU in your post. I read in one of the papers yesterday that the same attorney that was advising the MTA (when the TWU went on strike) is the same guy (firm) that is advising the league now.

P.P.S.
All this is becoming an obsession with me. It's like driving past an accident. I can't help but watch.

Updated On: 11/22/07 at 02:43 PM

[lotiloti]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 2:47pm

Whether or not, you agree or disagree with this or any dispute. Please remember that trade unions, are many workers only protection. Sadly, many people decry the unions. Until they find they need them, as I witnessed last year. They rushed to join & then, when the dispute was over. They let their membership lapse.
Like it or not, Unions are needed. Today, more than ever.

[dented146]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 3:08pm

Sorry, but it is possible to be pro-union and simply disagree with rules that make no sense in the current marketplace.

Consider the actors. They begin their long arduous climb to Broadway as kids in school, workshops, college. They work in regional productions and support themselves with no end jobs. And if they are the cream of the crop they may luck into a touring company or finally find their way to Broadway. It's a giant climb in which few are sucessful. The financial and emotional investment is gigantic. They deserve every dime they get and then some and desperately need their union.

Is that how it is for the stagehands?

[winston89]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 3:10pm

Roxy,

The stage hands know that without them the producers are F*CKed. It is known that the unions are where the good workers are and the producers want the best they can find as oppose to working with crappy staghenads and getting a crappy show.

It is smart that they are striking now. It is when the producers need them the most. It is smart they are going on strike now. It is when the producers need them the most.

And roxy,

There are far more important things less selfhish things then if you or other pepople get to see your show or not.

In fact if I hear one more story about how someone couldn't get to see thier show due to the strik I am gonna puke. It just shows how selfish and niave some people are in regards to what is going on.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 3:24pm

I could care less. Without an audience, both sides are ****ed.

What about the poor sclep bartender or waitress who depends on the Christmas season & now will be out a ton of money they will never get back. Does either side give a **** about them? It is all about the benjamins pure & simple.Do you care? Will the union kick in money to these people? Do not hold your breath.

If & when they go back fine. If not, I will survive. Unlike some on the board, I will not have a heart attack if I do not see a specific show (be it for the 1 st or 40th time). I am concerned that theatergoers (NYer & tourists) will say "f" you next time around. Theater has basically priced itself out of existence for many. No matter what the outcome, prices will continue going up & more & more will stay away. Why build future audiences when you are losing what you have now?

To Dented, those who agree with the Union 110 % do not even think about the issues & could care less if something makes sense or not.

Updated On: 11/22/07 at 03:24 PM

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 3:26pm

The ushers and other Unions that do not have Strike funds are reciving a token payment from Local ONE, but there are others who are receiving nothing.
Some Producers have kicked in to help them.
There is no black and white in this situation.
But why aren't they meeting right now?
With all the jobs and revenue at stake, they should be forced by somebody to talk every second this still goes on.
Updated On: 11/22/07 at 03:26 PM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 3:28pm

Totally agree

Lock them in a room with food & water & only allow them out to use the john. It will than be settled very quickly.They do not leave until it is solved. The question I have is if the contract expired months ago, this should have been resolved than not trying to do it at the last minute.

[allofmylife]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 3:29pm

"So why is everyone defending work rules that millions of Americans don't get. Why should they get them? Just "because they always had them"?

Union workers deserve to get those benefits because of the sweat and pain and suffering of their predecessors, who had no rights until they organized. I'm sorry many Americans don't have union benefits. But is that the fault of those who do? How fraking selfish can this country really get? If you envy our rights and rewards, go out and get some. Organize. Unionize.

Big business WANTS you to be without the rights my fellow union members fought for, the rights I'm fighting to keep. I'm sick of giving up everything in life piece-by-piece so the fraking wealthy can get wealthier.

Maybe it's time you got a chip on YOUR shoulder.

[dented146]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 3:32pm

winston, On one point you may be correct. Now is the time when the union has the most leverage because the shows make the most money now. BUT- The producers will never be F--ked because they are rich and they will still be rich next year. It is all the everyday guys that are getting hurt, including the stagehands.

Also, do you believe that stagehands as talented and experienced as the people in Local One do not exist in other cities around the US?

[Tkt2Ride]

Posted: 11/22/07 at 4:51pm

dented, oh so many things you still don't understand.


If you work in a Union Shop this is how things go. Before you take the job this is something to consider.
_____________________________________________________________

Now again Mr. Roxy, glad you found something new to bring to the plate. I read that this is having a minimal effect on Broadways other business because Tourist cannot cancel reservation or just won't for the Holidays. So how much of it is effecting other business is bad but not any worse than if a show has to close because of low ticket sales.

Those other workers can find other temporary work right now and will soon qualify for unemployment. It is one of the risk of taking a job in this industry. At any one time a Strike by another Union can be called. They had plenty of reasons to plan ahead for this strike. Once the Lock out was threatened everyone knew it was going to happen. Then the Strike vote? I mean they were warned and like I mentioned, they have a much better chance at other work then they do in the worst of the Winter.

Now Producers are going after the Theatres because they have the most money to lose. They will not win this Strike. Whatever they do take away from the Union they will just pass it along to Lawyers and Producers. This is why it was a very poor business plan.

This is the only time they have before the Winter sets in. It will get settled. Neither side can afford to let it go on for too long. Too much money is at stake right now for everyone.