WICKED Storyline Questions- Page 2

[StockardFan]

Posted: 7/13/08 at 6:48pm

I haven't seen it yet, and now I'm thoroughly confused. I guess I shouldn't have read this thread.

[LittleEDIEfan595]

Posted: 7/13/08 at 7:24pm

PLOT HOLES

[gypsy4]

Posted: 7/13/08 at 10:20pm

I wouldn't compare the two together

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 7/13/08 at 11:10pm

Because they're all plot holes. Part of the reason I can't stand Wicked.

My other reason is that it doesn't actually attempt to psychologically delve into why Elphaba is wicked. It just makes her the secret good guy and villainizes the Wizard for no real reason. So now the Wizard is the unexplained underdeveloped villain. IMO, a big cop-out.

Btw, I am referring only to the musical; I haven't read the book.

[puppet]

Posted: 7/13/08 at 11:19pm

SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER don't read if you haven't seen the show.

The whole idea that the wizard if Elfaba's father is a real cop out. How wiered is this idea!!

The book of the show is a real mess and is one of the big reasons it did not win the Tony that year.

The fact that Elfaba lives is a complete perversion of the OZ stories. She DOES die in the book the show is based on.

Updated On: 7/13/08 at 11:19 PM

[AdamIsGodImJesus]

Posted: 7/13/08 at 11:37pm

Wicked is far from perfect. I don't think I like it, but I feel most are reading too deeply into the plot parallels.

It was best described earlier as two separate stories. Isn't the main tagline for the show "The Untold Story of the Witches from Oz" or something long like that? The show, though flawed, is describing the story from the witches perspective whereas the movie describes it from Dorothy's perspective.

This is why, in the movie, the Scarecrow comes off completely different than Fiyero because that is how Dorothy viewed him. And translated him in that work.

It just reminds me of those children's books where you'd have the Big Bad Wolf tell his version of the story of the Three Little Pigs, and he ends up being the nice guy that was being picked on (please tell me I'm not so old that somebody doesn't know what I'm talking about).

It's not meant to compliment the movie at all (not even the book) but serves on its own as the alternate interpretation of the original story.

-So we are supposed to believe that when Dorothy met the Scarecrow, she was actually meeting Fiyero who was 'reincarnated' as the Scarecrow? Then he was 'hiding' his true love for the Wicked Witch/Elphaba all along his journey to see the Wizard of Oz?

Yes. I believe this isn't even a plothole, for I feel he was helping spread the propaganda that Elphaba "would melt" if Dorothy threw water on her which is why, in the end, Dorothy does.

-Why would the Scarecrow actually be so fearful of meeting the Wizard (as he is in the movie) if he.. as Fiyero.. not only knew who he was but was the captain of the 'army?'

He was the captain of the army?

-Boq is actually the Tinman. So how did he end up getting all rusty so quickly? In the movie when Dorothy and Scarecrow oil him, he says the last thing he remembers is cutting a tree.

Wasn't there just a cyclone that killed Nessarose? That to me equals rain which means he'd get rusted if outdoors.

[brettystar]

Posted: 7/13/08 at 11:54pm

AdamisGod.. has offered a pretty good response - whilst I don't agree with everything he wrote, he is pretty much on the money.

Although, the musical ties in closely with the movie of The Wizard of Oz, I don't think Wicked is supposed to provide all of the answers. As Adam said, it is a different view of the classic tale.

Also in response to another poster, everyone except Fiyero believes that the witch does die in the end, that's the whole point - that this is the 'untold story of oz'.

[ko74612]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 12:00am

Holtzman's book is far from the "mess" that it is being made out to be and I think the harshness is uncalled for.

Keep in mind that these supposed "plot holes" only appear when one tries to link together these two very different and distinct stories.

Wicked is the loosely based prequel offering nothing more than a reason for "why things were the way they were".

There are going to be inconsistencies. They were written 100 years apart. Give them a break.

[wicked91]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 12:04am

"The whole idea that the wizard if Elfaba's father is a real cop out. How wiered is this idea!! "

I totally agree. When the wizard discovers he's the father all they say is, "That explains why she had such power. She was a child from both worlds." Which also makes no sense at all. I mean the Wizard had no real power, so why would him being the father make her powerful.

But I choose not to get caught up in these things. I think it's a great musical and for the most part, makes sense to everyone.

[Holbee]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 12:38am

Okay, it doesn't matter if the "The Wizard of Oz" and "Wicked" connect story-wise. It doesn't matter if Fiyero is the scarecrow who is "scared" of the Wizard in the "Wizard of Oz". No. And its not even really a plot hole, as much as its a character being manipulated to act "out of character" in a gratuitous attempt to force the "Wizard of Oz" and "Wicked" to line up!! Do you think that Fiyero, upon reviving from his "change" would immediately jump on board with this Dorothy chick and follow her down the yellow brick road for WHATEVER reason-but especially to help her get her "wish" from a man he knows is corrupt? No. He would head straight for Winke country to seek out Elphaba. No passing go. No collecting 100 dollars. Boq's transformation into the Tin Man is less offensive but still rather stupid. I can see how they would want to connect the two pieces, audiences love that kind of thing. But to do it to the detriment of the piece, to do it in this inelegant way...especially after such a wonderful Act One (and pretty good beginning of Act II) pissed me off in previews and has pissed me off at all subsequent viewings. I love "Wicked the Musical". I do. But this almost spoils it for me. Its really about the integrity of the piece. And the authors sold it out.

[A Fleur De Toi]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 3:10am

my biggest bone to pick with the musical is the undeveloped Fiyero character and the Animal sub plot that goes completely awry. I think the rest is alright.

Fiyero, after his transformation into Scarecrow possibly saw his disguise as a good way to sneak into Emerald City (and what better way than with a girl who wishes to seek an audience with the wizard) and to obtain news of where Elphaba is (perhaps he told she wouldnt head back to Kiamo Ko since that's his home castle and you would think the Gale Force might look there. Anyway, after learning of where Elphaba is and on the pretext of going to kill her, he hatches the melting plan and manages to give her the details of his plan enroute to Kiamo Ko with Dorothy. Boq and the rest simply wanted to kill her.

Doesnt mean Winne Holtzman's book is nt crappy though. I think she read the Gregory maguire novel (which i think all of you guys should take a look at, seriously) and there was a bit when Elphaba has this psychotic meltdown thing towards the end and kept imagining Fiyero coming back to her disguised as the Scarecrow. Hence, Im thinking Winnie decided to put two and two together and I guess that was a pretty ok way to sanitise the whole shebang. I mean, what, have the Wicked Witch die together with Fiyero - whatever would the tweens do? :P (no offense)


"The fact that Elfaba lives is a complete perversion of the OZ stories. She DOES die in the book the show is based on. "

It wasnt stated explicitly she died actually. The whole water melting thing has some link to baptism, existence of the soul (read the book to find out :P) and it makes for a great read. The ending was rather enigmatic which made me think she didnt really die.
Something which goes like that, "Did the wicked witch ever come out of the cave....No,not yet" (Its not the exact quote, i cant rmb it offhand and it sounds a good deal better :P)



I have one question pertaining to the WICKED THE MUSICAL context though. Did Glinda know of Fiyero's plan to "melt" her? I know she says something like "I wish Glinda could know about it...blah blah"; but does anyone feel that perhaps Glinda knows that she didnt die? My friend keeps insisting Glinda does, although I can see no way how she could.So if anyone has an explanation, let me know :)

[Weez]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 4:08am

Ko has a point. It's unfair to diss the book of 'Wicked' because it doesn't match other books that are telling different versions of the same story.

Rather, it'd be far more fair and accurate to diss the book because of the appalling characterisation and ridiculous Disneyfied plot. ^_^

[Holbee]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 4:16am

Okay, that's quite a stretch there. And I'm sure the powers that be did not have that in mind when they concocted the connection (don't blame Winnie completely, I can't believe a writer who composed the thoroughly truthful "My So Called Life" wasn't forced to include these developments in the plot). But if you need to believe that to enjoy the musical go right ahead. Wait, you think the book is crap anyway? so...huh...?

[A Fleur De Toi]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 4:48am

well me accepting that the scarecrow can be fiyero doesnt make winne's book any better since fiyero's character development and the animal plot is honestly trashy. nah,you dont have to believe in anything to try and gloss over the plot holes to enjoy the musical...
i like wicked a fair bit, mainly because of the score, which i think sounds quite "fresh", if you get what i mean. the lyrics though....thats another story for another day....

[Weez]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 4:50am

Out of interest, does anyone else giggle at the oxymoron that is "Fiyero's character development" every time they see it? ^_^

[A Fleur De Toi]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 4:56am

LOL. this reminds me when i took my friend to watch wicked. Fiyero was so poorly developed and she couldnt even tell that he had become the Scarecrow guy and after the musical end, she leaned over and asked, "So, who the hell was that vaudeville dancer looking guy?"

i was momentarily rendered speechless.

[winston89]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 5:11am

I think that people are reading into it way too much. It really hasn't changed how I view the Wizard Of Oz at all and doubt it would. It does what the tagline says it will which is offer you the story of The Wizard of Oz from another point of view. It didn't say that it was going to be perfect. In fact it is far from it. But, I think that it does what is telling you it is going to do which is share with you the story in another way.

I still don't understand how the Wizard being Elphaba's father could help her out with her powers. I believe it was Elphaba who said that the Wizard had no real powers and he agreed with her and that was the whole reason behind him tricking everyone to thinking that Elphaba is bad.

I think that people looking at the whole Fyeiro storyline in terms of connecting it to the wizard of oz are looking into it a bit much. I think the one thing that throws me off is this. I understand that she uses the whole melting thing as a way to not get caught and as a way to be with Fyearo. Keep in mind that at the end of the As Long As Your Mine scene he tells her about his family's castle. Even though no one says where she is in that last scene that is where I think she is. But, wouldn't she have had to melt in some way for her to go from being where everyone can see her and wanting to kill her to hiding in the trap door waiting for Fyearo?

[Weez]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 5:20am

Not that I'm massively bored this morning or anything, but...

Elphaba. E-L-P-H-A-B-A. Elphaba.

Fiyero. F-I-Y-E-R-O. Fiyero.

'kay?

[A Fleur De Toi]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 5:36am

loud and clear!

and really, there are too many versions of the fiyero spelling.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 6:39am

Regarding the wizard being her father... It's been a while since I read the actual novel and I can't put my fingers on it at the moment, but I'm fairly sure that's hinted at in there as well. It's not a huge new thing for the musical.

edit: Found it. "It may be simply apocryphal that when the Wizard saw the glass bottle he gasped, and clutched his heart. The story is told in so many ways, depending on who is doing the telling, and what needs to be heard at the time."

So that is definitely suggested in the book.

Updated On: 7/14/08 at 06:39 AM

[A Fleur De Toi]

Posted: 7/14/08 at 8:20am

there was also the clock of the time dragon contraception which put up a play that told her the wizard was her dad... so i mean the musical book simply follows the gregory maguire book.

anyway whats so hard in believing that Elphaba was magical since she's a child of both worlds? That was like one of the more believer elements of the plot.

[NickChopper]

Posted: 9/12/09 at 9:31am

Updated On: 8/11/12 at 09:31 AM

[luvbrdway]

Posted: 9/12/09 at 10:09am

First - I love Wicked. I don't take it too seriously, just sit there with a grin on my face the whole time.

BUT - my question is: Why did Nessa have powers? She wasn't a child of both worlds, yet on her first try with the Grimmerie, she changed Boq into the Tin Man.

Adding another question: The dragon is cool looking, but what does it have to do with the story? I read they have a spare dragon on tour, so they can put up the dragon in the new theatre and not have to wait to take down the old one because it is a major process putting up and taking down. Would it be a big deal if it wasn't there at all?
Updated On: 9/12/09 at 10:09 AM

[WickedlyEdna1962]

Posted: 9/12/09 at 11:21am

Nessa does not change Boq into the tin man, Elphaba does.

Nessa shrinks his heart when trying to "magic spell" him so that he won't leave her. Then when she and Elphaba realize he will die without a heart Elphaba turns him into the tin man with her powers becuase like she says "he won't need a heart anymore" or something like that.

That's also why in "March of the Witch Hunters" Boq says: "It's due to her I'm made of tin her spell made this occur, so for once I'm glad I'm heartless, I'll be heartless killing her."

[saveusmike]

Posted: 9/12/09 at 12:09pm

lol you are all taking this way to seriously. Wicked (ecspecially the musical) is in no way a OFFICIAL prequel to the Wizard of Oz. Wicked the book is much much diffrent than the musical, And I dont want to hear anyone say its the same plot only simplified. Its not at all. The entire play cut out so so much from the book including the "in the vinkus" chapter.
This is all obviously to make it more family friendly (which was a smart buisness move).

The musical tries its hardest to fit into the wizard of oz time line (and comes pretty close). I dont think anyone should actually think anything deeper than what is presented. The musical coveres alot of "oz" ground but sometimes it leads you questioning other stuff (i.e in the movie why did Scarecrow try to kill the Witch if that was his "love" Elphaba)

I know when I watch the wizard of oz I do not see "Elphaba" as the girl from the musical, I see her as the evil witch of the west.

Thats how everyone should look at them, as two seperate entities.