When does Mrs. Lovett recognize Sweeney?

[Tirso de Molina]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 4:23pm

At what point do you all think Mrs. Lovett first recognizes Sweeney Todd? When she says, "So it *is* you: Benjamin Barker" after his outburst at the end of "Poor Thing", it seems clear that she already suspected his identity. But when does that suspicion first enter her mind? When he first walks into the shop? (she does say she thought she'd "seen a ghost") or at some specific later moment during "The Worst Pies in London"? And does this mean that Mrs.Lovett describes his wife's rape deliberately to provoke a reaction from him?

thoughts?

[K8eeyore]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 4:33pm

My take is that she suspects it may be him at first glance, then tries to confirm it with the story about his wife. And the graphic details are intended to get to him so she can 'comfort' him after he finds out.

[MrSweetNAwful]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 4:42pm

I think she notices him from the first moment but believes it isn't him ("I'd thought I'd seen a ghost") but slowly realises that it really is him and plays it cool thoughout Worst Pies and Poor Thing.

[Piazzaslight]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 4:50pm

I agree that she suspected it was him at first.But remember how Mrs. Lovett said, "A customer!" in a rather relieved tone? I think that she couldve been taken aback by Sweeney's appearence in the pie shop. As a result, she had a pretty good idea of who he was. Then, during the first lines of "The Worst Pies in London" (Wait! What's yer rush? etc) she could've been trying to get him to stay in the shop in order to make sure that it was him. Then, she does what people have mentioned above: just played it cool and made sure that it was officially him. So, she suspected it was him all along, and used "Poor Thing" in order to provoke a reaction out of him. That's what I believe, at least.

Updated On: 8/27/06 at 04:50 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 5:07pm

LOL! Piazzalight---I don't think you meant "costumer."

Although maybe she DID think he'd be good with bead work and a sewing machine.

I think you meant "customer."



*gasps*



A COSTUMER!!!

Updated On: 8/27/06 at 05:07 PM

[Piazzaslight]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 5:15pm

*rimshot*

best21bars: Haha, of course I did. Thanks for pointing out my error (And for the VERY funny pun!).

Oh - and it's PiazzaSlight. Not Piazzalight. Unless there really is such thing as a Piazza Light...

[WickedGeek28]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:22pm

Sweeney tells you. "From the moment I walked into your shop you knew my Lucy lived."

[jasonf]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:27pm

Now wait a minute -- while I think she knew instantly you cannot go by Sweeney's line "From the moment..." since he is completely mad at that point. Add to that grief and anger and NOTHING he says can be taken as necessarily a statement of fact. It's what's called an unreliable source.

[Tirso de Molina]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:28pm

WickedGeek, that doesn't necessarily mean Mrs. Lovett recognized Sweeney the moment he walked in -- at most, it means that's when Sweeney thinks she recognized him, but he has no way of knowing that for certain. He's simply saying that she knew "all along", which of course she did.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:31pm

That has nothing to do with her recognizing him. She knew all along that the Beggar Woman was Lucy, but it wasn't until she recognized him that Mrs. Lovett decided to lie about what happened to her.

[WickedGeek28]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:33pm

Quite true, I accept defeat.

[jasonf]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:35pm

SPOILERS AS IF IF YOU'RE READING THIS YOU DON'T KNOW THE PLOT...

orangeskittles - that poses another question though -- did Mrs. Lovett decide on the spot to lie, or did she know all along that if Barker ever came back, she would lie to him? My impression was that she always loved him (I THINK there might be an inference from right before she dies that she did) -- but was this always her idea or did it just "pop into her head?"

[Tirso de Molina]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:39pm

I guess that I always wonder how gradual Mrs. Lovett's recognition is. After all, if she were immediately certain of Sweeney's true identity, why play games? Also, she does comment on how changed he is, and neither the Judge nor the Beadle recognizes him (though the Beadle initially finds his face familiar, he seems to buy Mrs. Lovett's story). So how certain is Mrs. Lovett by the time, for instance, she gets "You do like a good story, don't you?"? I always see this scene as such a great opportunity for subtle work by the actress playing Nellie ....

[bwayondabrain]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:39pm

i think she thought of it spot on
i bet she loved him, but didnt think he'd return, but when he did, she was like "Oh my! He has returned! I love him and he shall love me! Blah!"
yeah, something along those lines...
"if you get my drift"

:)

[Tirso de Molina]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:46pm

yes, when she sings about how "beautiful" the barber was in "Poor Thing," it seems pretty plain that she was in love with him in the old days -- when he was a happily-married young man with a wife and child, and she was not-so-happily married to her late husband. and she did hold onto those valuable razors, too, which suggests a sentimental attachment more than an expectation of his return, given that coming back to England from Botany Bay was close to impossible.

of course, that opens the door to another question: does Sweeney recognize HER when he enters the pie shop?! if so, shouldn't he worry about her revealing his identity, since he's a fugitive from justice and all? for a man who'd be hanged if his identity came to light, he's fairly bold about chatting up his former landlady face-to-face.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 7:48pm

I agree that this is more up to the actress playing Nellie Lovett (and to the director of course) because there is a lot of subtext to play with. However, I believe that even as she sings "The Worst Pies In London" she is aware that this is Benjamin Barker, if not then she gradually realizes and by the time "Poor Thing" starts she has realized she must lie to keep him. Her line "My, you do like a good story, don't you?" is so full of suspicion and knowledge, in my opinion she is clearly manipulating him from the very beginning. Mrs.Lovett is calculating, manipulative, and the smartest person in the show, she knows exactly what she is doing from the second she exclaims "A costumer!"

[Tirso de Molina]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 8:08pm

Mrs. Lovett might well be the smartest person in the show in some ways, but she repeatedly and consistently blinds herself to the fact that the man with whom she's so in love is insane. From the moment he starts singing that his razors will drip with rubies, she has all the evidence she needs to know that he's mad as a hatter -- but she keeps deluding herself into believing that she can make him love her and that they will create a fantasy family together. This single-minded passion is what, to me, makes her a really tragic character, just as obsessed in her way as Fosca is in PASSION. Indeed, she's so obsessed that she betrays the trusting, innocent Toby, whom she really does love and who really does love her, when she realizes that he knows too much -- she tries so heartbreakingly hard to talk him out of his suspicions during "Not While I'm Around", but when she realizes how certain he is and realizes she has to choose between passion and maternal love, she chooses Sweeney and lures Toby down to the bakehouse with the clear intention that he's never going to leave it alive to tell his story.

I really always wish the show were called MRS. LOVETT! To me she's much more complex than Sweeney himself.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 8:08pm

She could lie to everyone about Lucy's death. That way, she's just treated like a crazed woman on the streets with no relations, where as if *anyone* knew it was Lucy, someone could take her in. She hated Lucy, so even if she didn't intend to one day win Benjamin Barker for herself, seeing the woman she was so jealous of living on the streets as a lunatic has got to be some sort of vindication for Mrs. Lovett.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 8:30pm

She is incredibly smart but barely sane. I agree she is like Fosca in many ways but for very different reasons. I believe both are manipulative and extremely intelligent with the difference that Nellie Lovett is mad and Fosca pretends to be mad (in my opinion) to take advantage of her weaknesses. I also agree that Lovett's tragic flaw is her obsession to make Todd love her, but is precisely because of this major obsession that I believe she knows who he is from the second she sees him. I doubt that this obsession merely develops when the show starts, it is probably safe to assume that her infatuation has only been growing for all the years Barker has been gone (and even before he was shipped off); perhaps she even sings "Poor Thing" to every male customer that comes to the shop hoping it's him (there is absolutely no textual evidence for this, I'm just speculating), this would mean she doesn't know who he is until she sees his reaction to the song.

[broadway86]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 10:25pm

Watching the DVD, it doesn't seem that she recognizes him until well after the song is over.

[briannn]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 11:26pm

about the why play games, it gives us, the viewers, more background information than if she just came out with saying i knew it was you.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 11:33pm

Mrs. Lovett's the nut. She's the one who makes pies out of humans...all Sweeney does is kill 'em.
Updated On: 8/27/06 at 11:33 PM

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 11:40pm

hmm, Skittles post got me thinking. How is it that Lovett is the only one that knows that the Beggar Woman is Lucy?

Posted: 8/27/06 at 11:53pm

i think she's fishing for a reaction with the line "Johanna..that was the baby's name. Pretty little Johanna..."
and then she signifies that she knows with the line "My, but you do like a good story dont you?"

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 8/27/06 at 11:59pm

She's a Dyke!?
I can relate to Loving someone who has been instationazilzed'
It's a great story
Keep posting..
Someone correct me quick.
Updated On: 8/28/06 at 11:59 PM