Sondheim or Webber?- Page 3

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 10:54am

I don't want to have to choose. Sondheim is a god, but even he has had some 'misses'. ALW, no matter how formulaic, has provided me with many hours of enjoyment. And I resent feeling like I *should* feel defensive about liking his stuff.

And, yes, I enjoyed CATS. So what.

[monjo26]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 11:37am

i will definitely check out the prokofiev piece you mention, Justice. thank you. but on the "phantom" / puccini accusation (oft repeated but rarely backed up with any specific examples) i would have to ask you to please provide some. i've listened to la boheme (and seen it) more than a few times - and i can't recall any jarring similarities - so please enlighten me.

also - i know you don't mean to be snide, insulting or condescending - but comments like "or do fans of ALW just not listen to classical music?" can be just that. of course, people who like ALW also listen to classical music - but there is a lot of classical music in the world - it would be hard to have listened to all of it yet - and i do confess to not being familiar with the Prokofiev piece you mention.

I'm curious though - do you at least acknowledge that with 12 tones available to create music from and hundreds of years of music already written and preserved - it would be impossible for anyone's music not to resemble music that had come before? (as a classical music fan, you surely know that all classical composers were largely influenced by pre-existing folk songs of their time and regions - and that they publicly and unapologetically "stole" the motifs for many of their most famous works from such sources. so, do you regard them with the same disdain with which you regard webber?)

i'm also interested in what you thought of the sondheim examples i cited? had you noticed those similarities to the songs i mentioned? (or - and of course, i am kidding - do sondheim fans not lower themselves to hearing or being aware of 1940s standards, cheesy pop songs or oscar winning movie scores of the past 25 years?)

thanks.

[B.B. Wolf]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 1:30pm

Though I love some of Webber's music, I have to go Sondheim. I'd take Sweeney over just about anything. It's a masterpiece.

[LilMiZBroADwaY23]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 1:57pm

Webber, over anything in the world.

This man brought me into the musical theatre world. First it started out with Joseph, then soon enough Cats, and so on and so on. Then I found Phantom, my favorite thing in the world.

I'm only fifteen, and haven't listened to a lot of Sondheim. But I also enjoy his music. I'll be playing the Witch in his 'Into the Woods' in August, and I'm throughly enjoying his music.

They're both different. You have to accept that. But I will always be a Webber fan until the day I die.

[JBSinger]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 3:21pm

As a performer who finds worth in many different styles, I would say there can definitely be a "Both." Sondheim is brilliant and his shows are artistic, powerful, challenging, and wonderful. Lloyd Webber definitely has a gift of melody and structure. Though he is commercially more successful, lets not forget his roots (JCS, Evita) which were definitely shaking things up before his CATS success. There are dud songs and shows from each composer and not everything they fart is gold. It just depends on what you're looking for in the theatre (or CD player) at any given time. I vote BOTH.

Posted: 12/26/04 at 4:45pm

Justice.. a while ago you mentioned that Lloyd Webber has stolen all of his shows from other sources?

Well so does Sondhiem...

A Little Night Music
Company
The Frogs
Into the Woods
Passion
Sweeney Todd

all other stories before.

And I have to say that Lloyd Webber and Sondheim are two totally different people. Why can't we like both. I liked Saturday Night Fever and I liked Sunday in the Park with George.
Why not? It is all musical theater and one is not better then another it is just different and we should all respect each others taste.

[shlamdiddly]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 6:12pm

Sondhiem with Phantom on the side please

[alphieboy]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 6:16pm

i prefer sondheim.

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 6:18pm

Yes, this thread is completely about what people individual tatses are and NOT which one is better which neither prbably is better than the other.

[Dramaqueen93088]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 9:08pm

hum....thats a toughy...NOT ITS WEBBER!!!
Sondheim is HORRIBLE ALL of his music is the same.
Assassins sounds like Merrily...and Sweeny Todd sounds like Into the Woods (Into the woods is his only good musical) and Bounce is the worst piece of (CENSORED) I have ever listened to...its DEFINATLY Webber.
Webber has style and is the Mozart of musical theatre. he was 17 when he wrote Joseph and although his stuff can sound the same it isnt all the same...I can tell the difference between his musicals...but Sondheim is the same...they should just open a musical called "sondheim" and play all of his songs knowone would know the difference.

WEBBER! Sir Webber!
Mal

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 10:44pm

"Justice.. a while ago you mentioned that Lloyd Webber has stolen all of his shows from other sources?

Well so does Sondhiem...

A Little Night Music
Company
The Frogs
Into the Woods
Passion
Sweeney Todd

all other stories before."

I believe Justice was referring to the score being taken from elsewhere, not the story...

And Dramaqueen93088, Sweeney Todd sounds nothing like Into the Woods, and Assassins doesn't sound anything like Merrily. That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Sweeney Todd is a bold, romantic Operetta, whilst Into the Woods has a score that has been written to sound "fairy-tale-esque". Merrily is one of Sondheim's most melodic scores, and uses many pop-sounding ballads. Assassins draws its inspiration from the music of the period of the assassinations - Sousa marches, cakewalks, and even a duet that sounds like it could be sung by the Proclaimers.
Sondheim's music is DISTINCTIVE. Sondheim's music DOESN'T SOUND THE SAME.
If you ever truly listened to the music of Sondheim you would find that each song has its own personality, and draws inspiration from a different source.
People that say all Sondheim sounds the same just prove their lack of intelligence. You don't have to LIKE Sondheim. But you could at least think about what you are saying.
I am not a huge fan of ALW, but I can see many good things about his writing. If you read my earlier post I blame most of his problems on his Lyricists (who might as well be writing nursery rhymes). I have thought about my opinion, and I can back it up. Tell me one part of Sweeney that sounds like Into the Woods. Come on, if you can make the claim you had better be able to back it up.
and its Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, not Sir. If you are going to idolise him, at least know what his name is...

[klmnumbers]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 10:57pm

ME TOO! Almost exactly.

Phantom of the Opera got me into Music at the tender young age of 9. The first shows I saw were Phantom, Les Mis, and Miss Saigon.

Now, of coure.. I'm IN LOVE WITH STEPHEN SONDHEIM. He is the better composer and artist.. (*cough Sunday in the Park with George cough*) Ahem. Of course, I think I love everything he has written.

But ah, yes. There ya go.

[pab]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 11:16pm

Thank you paradox, I was thinking of responding to the stupidity of the post by Dramaqueen93088 but I thought it would be a waste of time since it made no sense and was obviously coming from ignorance.

I don't understand why people can't like one composer without having to tear down the other. I like some of Webber, as I've stated before, but I prefer Sondheim. I don't have to say that Webber sucks or copies his music from elsewhere to build up my case for Sondhiem. I find some of the posts in this thread just childish in that regard.

[Sumofallthings]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 11:38pm

That's like asking the question: Jose' or Namo?

On the Jose' side there is a lot to be said for a paper thin intellectual aspect, total disregard for respect to ones craft and overall stupidity to the listener.

On the Namo side there is obvious wit, intelligence and thought provoking scenarios.

Jose' being Lloyd Webber and Namo being Sondheim of course.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 11:52pm

You're welcome Pab. Nothing irritates me more than people who don't think about what they post. Next we are going to have people claiming that Les Miserables sounds like Hair. Or that the composers of Mamma Mia! stole from ABBA for the score.
*sigh*
Does it really hurt to read what you have written before you post?

And while I am very much a Sondheim fan, I will happily admit that ALW got me into Musical Theatre. I was about 13 when I got given the DVD for Joseph and His Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat. I learnt every word, and fell in love. From there I moved further into the works of ALW. I was about 15 when someone made me borrow their copy of Sweeney Todd. I listened, and HATED it. I put it down for a week, and then listened again. I LOVED it. It is now my favourite score to a musical of all time (although SITPWG is my favourite Musical).
So now I love Sondheim. Do I forget that ALW started it all? No. Do I begrudge ALW his achievements? No (with the exception of Cats, which did not deserve any of those awards, or a run a hundredth of what it got). Am I glad that their is another Composer out there providing original scores to Musicals? Most certainly.

But I also adore the works of George Gershwin, Jerry Herman, Cy Coleman, JRB, Ahrens and Flaherty, Lopez and Marx and of course MARC SHAIMAN!!!
and many other composers that I can't be bothered listing...

[Dramaqueen93088]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 12:13am

I have been in NUMEROUS Sondheim plays and sure they are fun to be in but they are so boring to watch. Sweeny Todd is pretty good...sadistic but good...and Merrily is the worst musical ever written...Assassins is alright but offers nothing special. The point is....when I listen to ALWs music I feel something. i feel either sad, happy, mad,etc...his music makes me feel something. thats what music is supposed to do. Sondheims music doesnt do anything for me. So if your moved to tears by Into the Woods then more power to you..his music did the job..and if you feel happy hearing "go go go joseph" then mission accomplished. I, however, dont like Sondheim and w/o a doubt I pick Webber...and whether he is Sir or not is of little important I have heard him addressed as Sir.
Also...i have been in/seen: Into the Woods,West Side Story and Sweeny Todd. And they all sound the Same (except WWS. But thats becuase the music is by Leonard Bernstein)
xoxo
Mal

[pab]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 12:28am

"Also...i have been in/seen: Into the Woods,West Side Story and Sweeny Todd. And they all sound the Same"

Well that statment tells us a lot about your ear for music so I guess there is no point going any further on this topic with you.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 12:34am

do I bother dignifying that confusing and contradictory post with an answer?
might as well...

JUSTIFY YOUR OPINION! If you think Into the Woods and Sweeney Todd sound the same, tell me, Which parts?!?!?!

"Also...i have been in/seen: Into the Woods,West Side Story and Sweeny Todd. And they all sound the Same (except WWS. But thats becuase the music is by Leonard Bernstein)"

I'm glad you have been in or seen West Side Story. Relevance please?!?!?! Apart from the fact that WSS has sophisticated, intelligent lyrics, written by...god forbid...Stephen Sondheim. And what does that mean "I have been in/seen..."? I have been in Little Shop of Horrors, JCS, Oliver!, Cinderella, Fiddler on the Roof, The King and I, Oklahoma!, Carousel, Iolanthe and the Mikado, plus numerous plays/revues. I have seen Into the Woods, West Side Story, SITPWG, Sweeney Todd, Victor/Victoria, The Sound of Music, Passion, A Little Night Music, Grease! is the Word, Guys and Dolls, A Funny...Forum etc. Does that mean i can try and sound extra-talented by saying "I have been in/seen" : Little Shop of Horrors, JCS, Oliver!, Cinderella, Fiddler on the Roof, The King and I, Oklahoma!, Carousel, Iolanthe and the Mikado, plus numerous plays/revues, Into the Woods, West Side Story, SITPWG, Sweeney Todd, Victor/Victoria, The Sound of Music, Passion, A Little Night Music, Grease! is the Word, Guys and Dolls, A Funny...Forum etc.
Wow, my list is bigger than yours!
Therefore my opinion must be better!!!


You are new here. I apologise that my welcome to you here is so negative. But please, if you want to survive here, think about what you are saying. Justify your opinion. Don't make bold claims you can't support. The closest you have come to a coherent explanation thus far is "The point is....when I listen to ALWs music I feel something. i feel either sad, happy, mad,etc...his music makes me feel something. thats what music is supposed to do. Sondheims music doesnt do anything for me." GOOD! Now if you left it at that I would have been happy. I am glad you like ALW. I don't mind that you don't like Sondheim.If we all had the same opinions this would be the most boring forum ever.
Opinions = good. unjustified stupidity = bad.
"Merrily is the worst musical ever written" "Assassins is alright but offers nothing special" "Also...i have been in/seen: Into the Woods,West Side Story and Sweeny Todd. And they all sound the Same (except WWS. But thats becuase the music is by Leonard Bernstein)" "hum....thats a toughy...NOT ITS WEBBER!!! Sondheim is HORRIBLE ALL of his music is the same. Assassins sounds like Merrily...and Sweeny Todd sounds like Into the Woods (Into the woods is his only good musical) and Bounce is the worst piece of (CENSORED) I have ever listened to...its DEFINATLY Webber. Webber has style and is the Mozart of musical theatre. he was 17 when he wrote Joseph and although his stuff can sound the same it isnt all the same...I can tell the difference between his musicals...but Sondheim is the same...they should just open a musical called "sondheim" and play all of his songs knowone would know the difference. WEBBER! Sir Webber! "
I wonder which category all that fell into? Updated On: 12/27/04 at 12:34 AM

[KateMusic]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 12:51am

I have to say, while Webber first got me into musicals ("Phantom" was my first musical experience), Sondheim has been my love ever since I discovered "Into the Woods." While I appreciate Webber, I am definitely a Sondheim girl.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 1:00am

Paradox:

Do not waste your time or effort in trying to talk sense into Dramaqueen93088. Her knowledge and skill is above all ours, and we should just listen to what she has to say. It makes so much sense. Things like "Sondheim is horrible all of this music is the same." Then she goes on to say that all of ALW's music sounds the same...but she can tell it's not. We should trust her opinion - it's obviously a very educated one.

PS: Dramaqueen, reading your posts wanted to make me want to drink Windex. Happy Holidays.

[musicalfandukie]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 1:01am

SONDHEIM

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 1:22am

Munkustrap, you're the best!!!
I liken educating a vapid blackhole such as DramaQueen to herding cats, or training goldfish.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 1:27am

Well, you never know. After all, she has been in/seen MANY shows.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 1:38am

oh yes...Ustadance would value DramaQueen's opinion, because she has been in/seen MANY shows.
well DramaQueen...go be Ustadance's friend.

[pab]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 1:41am

It's incredible how many tweens are on this board. If not in actual age (I gather she is 16) in the way that they think. Unfortunately a number of them are the ones that only know about "Wicked" and even frustrate some of their fellow "Wicked" fans with their juvenile postings. I'm glad that you guys, Paradox & munkustrap178, have the patience to respond.

Updated On: 12/27/04 at 01:41 AM