Sondheim or Webber?- Page 2

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 8:48am

What a silly topic. I am a Sondheim fan over LALW, 1000%, but I still love LALW, and I still recognize that it is not a simplistic division.

Even CATS, a show akin to Chorus Line in its plot structure, is a highly intelligent show, using T.S. Eliot's Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats, a poetry book. T.S. Eliot IS one of the great poets of our time.
And BESIDES, there are so many wonderful composers out there, falling into neither of these categories. Sondheim and LALW are not umbrellas, they are individual composers.

And yes, one can argue that the source material or main ideas of LALW's musicals are intelligent, while the actual pieces are watered down, I would say that this is mostly untrue, and any evidence of that can be found in EVITA.

Updated On: 12/25/04 at 08:48 AM

[Broadway Matt]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 8:50am

nevermind

Updated On: 12/25/04 at 08:50 AM

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 8:59am

I edited. It was nasty of me. Sorry.

Why would finn be ashamed?

I just thought that Justice's question was fine, but his response later on,


"Let me explain - Sondheim is about intellect. Webber is about simplicity. Either you like to be entertained with thought, or you just like to be entertained," bothered me so.

I might even agree with him, so I have no real right to argue to his contrary, but I just feel that each composer has nothing to do with the other.

And another thing is that ALW doesn't really write the lyrics to any of his shows, does he? So are we judging that his music is either intelligent or entertaining? Because I feel that might be a silly argument, as orchestral music without lyrics in his shows could sound very intelligent and complex.
Also, I am NOT a fan of ALW in any way, to tell the whole truth, it is just the fact that people enjoy being his detractors. He works very hard, and is not a robot turning out sterile sheet music, he is an artist, and a highly financially succesful one at that.

Updated On: 12/25/04 at 08:59 AM

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 9:07am

PS you can pm me on this one and save me public humiliation as my christmas gift.



I'll celebrate christmas for that (just this once).

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 9:12am

no he does not write the lyrics to his works. He wrote lyrics to one song that he wrote for a pop singer (I think. I maybe wrong on this) but it was lousy so he said he wouldn't write lyrics again. Also, I forgot to mention. If you think that all Webber writes is simplistic music, try VARIATIONS on for size. I know it is variations on Puggini's (sp?) work but still. He took one song and made 10 different versions of it and they all f*in' rock. He even wrote a REQUIEM people. A lot of people think it is bad (not me) but what other musical theatre composer has even thought of writing a REQUIEM?

[Broadway Matt]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 10:45am

didn't mean to humiliate anyone, but I thought it was silly to make a statement that in and of itself was nastier than what it was commenting on. whether or not the Sondheim/ALW debate is relevant, it was at least a more worthy post than one saying how dumb it is. The only reason I mention Finn is because he's my favorite composer and one of my personal role models, and it upset me to hear such unpleasantness come from a fellow Finn-atic (a title I just made up but don't think I'll be using again).

Sorry to have added to the unpleasantness. Merry Christmas.

"I am wearing a hat."- Finn

[Justice]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 12:12pm

Re ALW : "His stories take a lot of thought and maturity"

Um, every single musical he has written is based off a book or a movie. And he doesn't write the stories, or the lyrics, or the script. He doesn't even orchestrate them. All he does is provide notes.

Updated On: 12/25/04 at 12:12 PM

[Elphaba3]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 1:12pm

They both did some good things and some bad things. I think Sondheim is brilliant. Into the Woods is nothing short of genius. However, ALW has created some great melodies.

[Elphie Pingleton]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 1:58pm

I may be young and i may not know too much, but from my experiences i don't think you can compare the two, no one is better than the other. They have completely differnt styles and strenghts. They've both had their triumphs and flops yet they are both credited as two of the most respected composers of our time, so why even try and choose who's better, sure we all have our opinions and prefered styles and genres but in a completely non-subjective and non-bias way there is no "best". Thats my opinion anyways.

[LittleFish8386]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 2:00pm

Webber has nothing over Sondheim.

[Sondheimman132]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 3:52pm

Sondhiem is unquestionable the greatest lyricist of all time, and his music is incredibly sophisticated, in every aspect, and whoever it was that said he writes some stuff that is stupid, i am afraid you are DEEPLY mistaken. Sondheim would never take on a project that he thought was inadequite for him, and he has turned down many things. Everything that he writes is a success.
As for ALW, he is indeed a talented composer, but doesn't stand a chance against Sondheim. When I think ALW, i think "Fun" when i think Sondheim, i think "THIS F*****G ROCKS!!!"
That being said,
Sondheim.

[maybethistime]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 3:53pm

SONDHIEM.

Sondhiem has classic/golden age marterial and is refreshing and fun to listen to. While Webber is also fun to listen to FOR A WHILE, but then you get tired of the same stuff over & over again... (of course, i havent heard/seen WnW)

[chinkie azn jai]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 4:36pm

They both have their strengths and their weaknesses. Sondheim is very thought provoking and it is great in context with the show the music and lyrics are for. ALW's music to his shows are good just by themselves but sometimes they don't advance the plot or give character development. So, I really can't decide.

[pab]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 5:03pm

This is really is sort of an Apples and Oranges discussion. First off, as I've posted earlier, I'm a die hard Sondheim fan. I think that he is an outright genius and has probably now become one of the most, if not the most, important figure in the history of Broadway. This should not take away anything from many of the other brilliant Broadway composers who have come before and will come after him.

I have liked a number of ALW's compositions starting with "JCS" and continuing with "Evita". One must note, however, that he is not a Composer/Lyricist so this is an unfair way to compare him to Sondheim or to compare Sondheim to many other composers of the past and present.

Sondheim is not just a composer but he is also a writer. Not just a brilliant lyric writer but someone who has also written stories. Some people might know that he co-wrote the screenplay for the movie "The Last of Sheila".

Many composers rely on others to provide them with the words, so maybe one can compare Webber and Sondheim's melodies but one has to be careful when comparing the complete song (words and music). This is a place where Sondheim surpasses everyone.

There are many beautiful melodies written by Webber and I must say that when I don't like his stuff is when it's attached to a weak story or no story at all like "Cats". "Evita" is, IMO, a brilliant show and one of his best pieces and, in part, that praise must also go to Tim Rice.

I think that it might be better to compare Sondheim to another Composer/Lyricist and see how that comparison turns out.

Updated On: 12/25/04 at 05:03 PM

Posted: 12/25/04 at 5:30pm

Sondheim vs the overated Jerry Herman is something I'd happily stand up and fight for :)

E

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 5:51pm

"Webber has nothing over Sondheim."

That's ignorant and untrue.

They are apples and oranges. The reason we are comparing them is because they are the best in each of their styles which means it comes down to personal taste.

[mizzie]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 6:55pm

Well, this is not my personal opinion, but at the camp I went to, people were divided into three dance groups:
Webbers were the best
Sondheims second best
Gershwins third best.
Meh.

[Mr. TN]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 7:21pm

Sondheim is the greatest lyricist of the modern times. That is almost universal. His lyrics are incredible. HOWEVER, he cannot write too many good scores. Granted, he has some ok music but most is just terrible. I will not listen to his atonal, dissonant, unmelodic, wandering notes thrown on a page. I would much rather listen to, say, WSS or Gypsy where his lyrics are given direction by a composer who can write pleasing, melodic, and tonal music. The western ear is used to hearing melody and tonal harmony. I can't even get through the prologue to Into the Woods. It is so unmusical. ALW, on the other hand, can write wonderful music. Using lush orchestrations and dynnamic shaping, Webber grasps the emotions he wants to convey without even using words. I would love him to compose more music for orchestra, film underscoring, or just instrumental music in general. The Woman in White is his most "classical" score to date and it is wonderful. He also uses some 20th century concepts in the music, ackward intervals and offset chords but does so with a better mastery of music than Sondheim. They fit where Webber uses them. Webber does not write lyrics. So this is comparing apples to oranges in that department. If you want to compare music, see my post but it is impossible to compare lyrics and book when ALW does not write his own. Try comparing Sondheim to Hammerstein or Ebb....That would be a good comparison for lyrics.

On the music note.. as a composer and musician myself, you can guess who I prefer.

[zoran912]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 8:00pm

Bernstein's music for WSS is incredibly dissonant. Have you heard the score?

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/25/04 at 10:18pm

Yes Bernstein's music for West Side Story is incredibly dissonant and haunting. As is George Gershwin's acclaimed score for Porgy and Bess. As are many of the songs in the Sondheim Canon.
But not all...you cannot tell me that Lovely, There Won't Be Trumpets, Being Alive, Losing My Mind, Send in the Clowns , Someone In A Tree, Pretty Lady, Not While I'm Around (somewhat dissonant but simply breathtaking), Children and Art, No one Is Alone, Loving You, Unworthy of Your Love etc are unmelodic and overly dissonant. Each of these songs has a gorgeous melody and is, dare i say, hummable (with the exception of Pretty Lady i think). These songs alone prove Sondheim to be one of the most talented composers of the twentieth century.
Add to this mix his more complex songs, for example the afore metioned Into The Woods Prologue, and one can easily realise why this man is sometimes touted as the Greatest Composer of the Twentieth Century.
Sure, dissonance and complexity doesn't necessarily mean good, but Sondheim takes these to a new level. Each song he writes is distincly unique, and works best in the show it was written for. The music is written in such a way that it supports the lyrics in identifying the singer's Character. In A Little Night Music the Song Now/Later/Soon is a perfect example of Sondheim's ability to use BOTH music and lyrics to reveal information about the characters, while moving the plot along. In Now, Sondheim gives Fredrik some very complicated lyrics, and a complicated melody to boot. "the Bronte's are grander but not very gay/ her taste is much blander I'm sorry to say/ but as Hans Christian Anderson ever risque..." Both music and lyrics are designed to show Fredrik's intelligence. I once read Sondheim say that the Music/Lyrics in ALNM are very particular in revealing intelligence. Fredrik, being one of the most complicated and intelligent characters in the show, gets some of the most complicated and intelligent songs to sing. In Later we move on to the macabre Henrik, who hauntingly plays on the Cello as he sings. The music and lyrics are not as complicated as Fredrik's, but still show off Henrik as a very intelligent and misunderstood young man. In Soon, Anne is given some of the blandest lyrics, and the most melodic movement of the song. "Soon I promise/ Soon I won't shy away." Not only does this reveal to us Anne's simplistic view of the world, but it shows that Fredrik and Anne's relationship was destined to fail. I find it interesting that Sondheim attributes the most melody to the most simplistic character. In this song Sondheim uses music and lyrics in a way that no other composer can. They are inextricably linked. Melody and dissonance are used to further characters. Both music and lyrics are used to reveal thought, reveal characteristics and move the plot along.
THAT is the main flaw with ALW's writing. While he writes some good music (or steals it from other composers), his works fall flat when they rely on the banal writing of his lyricists. Many of his songs do very little to reveal motive, express inner thought or move the plot along. They are simply a pretty song. Or the music is fitting, but the lyrics detract from the intent of the piece.
Both composers are successful, both are highly intelligent, but I'm putting my vote in the SONDHEIM camp. It is like comparing apples and oranges, but for some reason, these apples are much more delicious than the oranges!

[monjo26]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 2:13am

Apologies first - this is long.

I have been lurking out here for about a year and the recent barrage of webber bashing based on the Phantom movie - and now this thread (which, as i read it, seems to throw down the gauntlet: "webber or sondheim? stupid or smart? tell us which you are!") has prompted my very first post.

So, sondheim's music is about intellect? I wish somebody would explain to me what intellectual music is. Since webber doesn't write the lyrics, i must assume you're only talking about the music - so can somebody tell me the difference between smart and dumb music?

While i'm waiting to have that explained to me - i'd like to throw something else out there. Those of you who hate, loathe and abominate Webber and revere Sondheim (and think there can be no in between)probably also think of ALW as a hack and a plagiarist, no?

So, i'm interested in hearing specific examples of what y'all think ALW has cribbed from the history of music.

And being a Sondheim worhipper from way back, and just to be fair - i thought it might be interesting to use his ouevre as a devil's advocacy sort of position and point out a few examples of Sondheim tunes that sound vaguely familiar. I'm not asserting that Steve stole any of these tunes - just trying to make the point that it is entirely possible that ALW's alleged (yet somehow legendary) similarity to any other composer music, living or dead, might be purely coincidental. (even if he did settle that one case with the puccini estate!)

So, examples.
the "Johanna" quartet from Sweeney Todd - sounds a bit like the the title song of "Gigi"

"Finishing the Hat" sounds a bit like - gasp - the carpenters' "We've only just begun"

"We do not belong Together" (the chorus or title portion) sounds a wee bit like - gasp - "Chariots of Fire"

"Goodbye for Now" theme from Reds sounds a LOT like "I'll be home for christmas" (which is sort of ironic since being home for christmas is kind of a recurring motif in that movie and Sondehim has stated that he's never heard the song "i'll be home for christmas"! )

anyway, i'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

thanks.

[TheatreRatinBlue]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 5:31am

"Sondheim or Webber? (and you cannot say both, because there's no such thing)"

i'm calling BULL S**T!! lol I honestly do like both composers, they both have produced some amazing shows. I am a middle of the road kind of person.

[My Fair Lady]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 9:45am

Sondheim, but he's not my favorite.

[Justice]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 9:48am

What ALW has "cribbed". I assume that means stolen. Let's start with the Phantom of the Opera theme song. (Overture/Title song.) Then listen to Battle On Ice by Prokofiev, and tell me you don't hear the same almost exact song. (Not only that, but Prokofiev is listed as one of his inspirations). Then when you're through with that, listen to La Boheme, and tell me you don't hear certain Phantom melodies. I can't believe people don't pick these things up. Or is it just that ALW fans don't listen to classical music.

[My Fair Lady]

Posted: 12/26/04 at 9:51am

In one of the classical peices I played, the beginning was Castle on a Cloud. Same exact mealody for the first two measures.