Sondheim or Webber? — Page 2

nevermind

---

Updated On: 12/25/04 at 08:50 AM

PS you can pm me on this one and save me public humiliation as my christmas gift.



I'll celebrate christmas for that (just this once).

---

didn't mean to humiliate anyone, but I thought it was silly to make a statement that in and of itself was nastier than what it was commenting on. whether or not the Sondheim/ALW debate is relevant, it was at least a more worthy post than one saying how dumb it is. The only reason I mention Finn is because he's my favorite composer and one of my personal role models, and it upset me to hear such unpleasantness come from a fellow Finn-atic (a title I just made up but don't think I'll be using again).

Sorry to have added to the unpleasantness. Merry Christmas.

"I am wearing a hat."- Finn

---

They both did some good things and some bad things. I think Sondheim is brilliant. Into the Woods is nothing short of genius. However, ALW has created some great melodies.

Webber has nothing over Sondheim.

SONDHIEM.

Sondhiem has classic/golden age marterial and is refreshing and fun to listen to. While Webber is also fun to listen to FOR A WHILE, but then you get tired of the same stuff over & over again... (of course, i havent heard/seen WnW)

This is really is sort of an Apples and Oranges discussion. First off, as I've posted earlier, I'm a die hard Sondheim fan. I think that he is an outright genius and has probably now become one of the most, if not the most, important figure in the history of Broadway. This should not take away anything from many of the other brilliant Broadway composers who have come before and will come after him.

I have liked a number of ALW's compositions starting with "JCS" and continuing with "Evita". One must note, however, that he is not a Composer/Lyricist so this is an unfair way to compare him to Sondheim or to compare Sondheim to many other composers of the past and present.

Sondheim is not just a composer but he is also a writer. Not just a brilliant lyric writer but someone who has also written stories. Some people might know that he co-wrote the screenplay for the movie "The Last of Sheila".

Many composers rely on others to provide them with the words, so maybe one can compare Webber and Sondheim's melodies but one has to be careful when comparing the complete song (words and music). This is a place where Sondheim surpasses everyone.

There are many beautiful melodies written by Webber and I must say that when I don't like his stuff is when it's attached to a weak story or no story at all like "Cats". "Evita" is, IMO, a brilliant show and one of his best pieces and, in part, that praise must also go to Tim Rice.

I think that it might be better to compare Sondheim to another Composer/Lyricist and see how that comparison turns out.

---

Updated On: 12/25/04 at 05:03 PM

"Webber has nothing over Sondheim."

That's ignorant and untrue.

They are apples and oranges. The reason we are comparing them is because they are the best in each of their styles which means it comes down to personal taste.

Sondheim is the greatest lyricist of the modern times. That is almost universal. His lyrics are incredible. HOWEVER, he cannot write too many good scores. Granted, he has some ok music but most is just terrible. I will not listen to his atonal, dissonant, unmelodic, wandering notes thrown on a page. I would much rather listen to, say, WSS or Gypsy where his lyrics are given direction by a composer who can write pleasing, melodic, and tonal music. The western ear is used to hearing melody and tonal harmony. I can't even get through the prologue to Into the Woods. It is so unmusical. ALW, on the other hand, can write wonderful music. Using lush orchestrations and dynnamic shaping, Webber grasps the emotions he wants to convey without even using words. I would love him to compose more music for orchestra, film underscoring, or just instrumental music in general. The Woman in White is his most "classical" score to date and it is wonderful. He also uses some 20th century concepts in the music, ackward intervals and offset chords but does so with a better mastery of music than Sondheim. They fit where Webber uses them. Webber does not write lyrics. So this is comparing apples to oranges in that department. If you want to compare music, see my post but it is impossible to compare lyrics and book when ALW does not write his own. Try comparing Sondheim to Hammerstein or Ebb....That would be a good comparison for lyrics.

On the music note.. as a composer and musician myself, you can guess who I prefer.

Yes Bernstein's music for West Side Story is incredibly dissonant and haunting. As is George Gershwin's acclaimed score for Porgy and Bess. As are many of the songs in the Sondheim Canon.
But not all...you cannot tell me that Lovely, There Won't Be Trumpets, Being Alive, Losing My Mind, Send in the Clowns , Someone In A Tree, Pretty Lady, Not While I'm Around (somewhat dissonant but simply breathtaking), Children and Art, No one Is Alone, Loving You, Unworthy of Your Love etc are unmelodic and overly dissonant. Each of these songs has a gorgeous melody and is, dare i say, hummable (with the exception of Pretty Lady i think). These songs alone prove Sondheim to be one of the most talented composers of the twentieth century.
Add to this mix his more complex songs, for example the afore metioned Into The Woods Prologue, and one can easily realise why this man is sometimes touted as the Greatest Composer of the Twentieth Century.
Sure, dissonance and complexity doesn't necessarily mean good, but Sondheim takes these to a new level. Each song he writes is distincly unique, and works best in the show it was written for. The music is written in such a way that it supports the lyrics in identifying the singer's Character. In A Little Night Music the Song Now/Later/Soon is a perfect example of Sondheim's ability to use BOTH music and lyrics to reveal information about the characters, while moving the plot along. In Now, Sondheim gives Fredrik some very complicated lyrics, and a complicated melody to boot. "the Bronte's are grander but not very gay/ her taste is much blander I'm sorry to say/ but as Hans Christian Anderson ever risque..." Both music and lyrics are designed to show Fredrik's intelligence. I once read Sondheim say that the Music/Lyrics in ALNM are very particular in revealing intelligence. Fredrik, being one of the most complicated and intelligent characters in the show, gets some of the most complicated and intelligent songs to sing. In Later we move on to the macabre Henrik, who hauntingly plays on the Cello as he sings. The music and lyrics are not as complicated as Fredrik's, but still show off Henrik as a very intelligent and misunderstood young man. In Soon, Anne is given some of the blandest lyrics, and the most melodic movement of the song. "Soon I promise/ Soon I won't shy away." Not only does this reveal to us Anne's simplistic view of the world, but it shows that Fredrik and Anne's relationship was destined to fail. I find it interesting that Sondheim attributes the most melody to the most simplistic character. In this song Sondheim uses music and lyrics in a way that no other composer can. They are inextricably linked. Melody and dissonance are used to further characters. Both music and lyrics are used to reveal thought, reveal characteristics and move the plot along.
THAT is the main flaw with ALW's writing. While he writes some good music (or steals it from other composers), his works fall flat when they rely on the banal writing of his lyricists. Many of his songs do very little to reveal motive, express inner thought or move the plot along. They are simply a pretty song. Or the music is fitting, but the lyrics detract from the intent of the piece.
Both composers are successful, both are highly intelligent, but I'm putting my vote in the SONDHEIM camp. It is like comparing apples and oranges, but for some reason, these apples are much more delicious than the oranges!

"Sondheim or Webber? (and you cannot say both, because there's no such thing)"

i'm calling BULL S**T!! lol I honestly do like both composers, they both have produced some amazing shows. I am a middle of the road kind of person.

What ALW has "cribbed". I assume that means stolen. Let's start with the Phantom of the Opera theme song. (Overture/Title song.) Then listen to Battle On Ice by Prokofiev, and tell me you don't hear the same almost exact song. (Not only that, but Prokofiev is listed as one of his inspirations). Then when you're through with that, listen to La Boheme, and tell me you don't hear certain Phantom melodies. I can't believe people don't pick these things up. Or is it just that ALW fans don't listen to classical music.

---